The Sixers, who are currently trying to fend off the Boston Celtics for control of the Atlantic division, took care of business against a Cavs team that checked out at halftime.
–I think we’re watching a team in free fall. The Cavs look discombobulated on the offensive end and uninterested on defense. The Sixers are a team that likes to run their guards through screens, and it’s not like fighting through screens from Spencer Hawes and Elton Brand is easy, but the Cavalier guards just didn’t make the necessary effort to reach the Sixers’ shooters. This is part of the reason Jodie Meeks (Jodie Meeks!) posted 31 points. The other reason is that Jodie Meeks turned into a human torch at some point in the second quarter.
–I think it’s time to start examining the cause of all these Kyrie Irving turnovers. He had five tonight, and while my gut says it’s mostly his fault that he has been so sloppy with the ball lately (he sometimes tries to play a little faster than he should), I’m gonna take a look at some game tape and figure out precisely what he and/or his teammates are doing wrong. It’s an area of concern at this point.
–Lou Williams is one of the best bench scorers in the league. The Cavaliers played like they were completely unaware of this fact in the first half, when Williams scored 11 points.
–I might write about this at some point in the near future, but I have a strong affection for Alonzo Gee. Not because he’s a particularly great basketball player—he’s fine—but because of how hard he plays. Gee’s not a particularly skilled player, but he has a Varejaonian knack for doing things that don’t end up in the box score. How many times per game does he tip a rebound or a pass? How many offensive sets does he disrupt by running around a screen and clogging the passing lane? He just works so damn hard on the glass and the defensive end; my heart sings for dudes like that. He was the Cavs’ lone “bright” spot tonight, finishing with 13 points, eight rebounds, and three assists along with solid defense. (Those 13 points were on 12 shots, hence the air quotes.) It’s a shame he couldn’t matchup against his more talented doppelgänger, Andre Iguodala. But then, if Iggy had played, the Cavs might have lost by 30.
–Luke Walton is getting way more burn than I thought he would. But then I remember the alternative is Luke Harangody.
–I note that the Cavs might be in free fall in part because their schedule gets tougher from now until the end of the season. They will occasionally face sub-par competition—the Nets, the Bobcats, the Wizards—but for the most part, they will face pretty good basketball teams and the schedule is going to be incredibly compact. We might have seen the best the Cavs have to offer this year, especially since Ramon Sessions’s scoring off the bench is now absent.
The Cavs have a winnable game against Detroit tomorrow at the Q. Until then, friends.
Here’s another “bright” spot for the Cavs: if they lose tomorrow, they’ll move into the seventh draft slot. So…yeah.
I’m going to the game tomorrow. I’m not sure if the beer tasting before tip off is going to make this garbage easier to swallow. Fortunately, draft picks. Meh.
Someone on an earlier post mentioned the possibility of signing Lou Williams this off season as the backup PG/SG, could this happen??
Another game demonstrating the lack of value of Jamison. I hope those that want to see him resigned at all because he is 2nd best scoring option right now think about how they would feel watching 3-10 shooting nights for (what we hope is) a playoff team next season. And he will just get worse.
Here’s a link I found today illustrating the value of Jamison to our offense.
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2011-2012&mode=summary&sortnumber=82&sortorder=DESC&team=CLE
However much it is tough to admit, what Jamison does is still very key to our offense. In addition, he’s been a good influence on the rookies. I personally wouldn’t have a problem with him coming off the bench next season, I don’t think there’s a significantly better option at a reasonable cost unless we draft a PF honestly.
Today’s game is what you would expect from a bad young team near the end of a season against a pretty good team. Really not a lot to get out of games like this, other than ping pong balls.
I don’t want the cavs to ever lose, but I think its time to even rest Irving a few extra mins a game. There is like a 3 game difference between the 4th spot and the 8th, would be nice to see them have more ping pong balls. Plus let Manny Harris and sloane get more burn and see what we have, give tristan some more looks even with a limited skill set, run plays for gee, too bad parker and jamison couldn’t amount to anything in the trade market.
I think we’re starting to see just how bad this roster really is. We have, as most of us have said all along, four or five pro-level guys and then a bunch of works in progress or bench filler. I think we’re going to have to do more than just draft in order to see any substantial improvements over the next few seasons, especially if we pick another work in progress with the top pick.
These last couple of games have been abysmal.
Also, did anyone notice how bad Irving’s body language looked at the end of the game last night? That was something I definitely didn’t want to see.
I like the recent comment Grant made when talking about all his draft assets – he alluded to moving up in the draft using some of the picks. Did anyone else see that this morning? We have so many draft assets, we can’t use all of them… Maybe someone would be willing to trade down a few picks for 1 or more of them…
Adjusted plus-minus is tricky. There is a good chance it can overvalue the best of a bad group of players if the other 4 are bad enough. i think that the Cavs qualify, especially without sessions.
Importantly he is a key member of a bad offense (pace adjusted 24th out of 30) that we aren’t interested in replicating next season.
Mallory,
I agree, Irving’s body language looked terrible, particularly during a closeup on the FSO broadcast. The guy is a winner, and he is taking these crappy games personally. Hopefully, he is not directing that internally (loser mentality) or externally (disappointment with the organization) in the wrong ways.
The way KI is taking these games is the exact problem with tanking, which is done in the NBA by putting out a cruddy team when one could be putting out a better one (what’s known as “starting Anthony Parker…”). Losing begets losing.
I was at the game last night in Philly. There were no bright spots in my opinion. The Philly fans were either mocking me playfully or feeling sorry for me. Kyrie was sloppy. Jamison looked terrible. We were shooting shots regularly that were airballs or clanked off the side of the backboard. Our defense is putrid. How many times can you get beat on the same backscreen under the hoop??? Their guards and small forwards were getting lay ups all night off the same stinking play. Either no coaching adjustments or the players not trying hard enough, couldn’t tell which…no one really played defense other than Tristan, Samardo, and Gee. Everyone else looked overmatched or uninterested on the defensive end. Bottom line for me is…I miss Andy Varejao. His absence is very noticeable with this team.
@Dan what stood out more (and what I think is more likely to happen) was that Grant also alluded to potentially trading a package of picks for actual players. I think the cost of moving from 8th or 7th to say 5th or 4th would probably be too high (and is unlikely to happen based on past history). What could happen, though, is a trade for a youngish player who has a couple years left on a contract or that another team doesn’t feel they have the money to extend. That’s what I’m hoping for.
Like I’ve said all along, I can’t see us having a similar roster filled with 20-24 year olds next year. You just don’t want to see anything less than a 10+ game swing in a guy like Irving’s second year. Basically, we should expect to contend for the 7-8 seed next year or be seriously disappointed.
Well, I wouldn’t mind using the picks to package for players either. A little bit of me was hoping for them to come away from the trade deadline with a big like Kaman. I wouldn’t mind if there was some way to get Brook Lopez to sign with us as well…
I can’t see anyone being able to pry Lopez away from NJ/Brooklyn, even if they offer him the max. The Nets are almost definitely losing Williams to FA, so Lopez is just about all they’re going to have for a while…
I still have no idea why we didn’t make an offer to Wilson Chandler. He wouldn’t have done much for us this season, and could’ve been a PERFECT fit on this team going forward. I mean, how many 24 year old, 6’8 swings are there out there who can create their own shot, shoot off a pass, and defend? I know he’s not a star, but he’s certainly a good 2nd/3rd option for a young team. Oh well.
“Losing begets losing”
This just isn’t true. The teams that suck forever draft mediocre to poor years on end (we’ve already drafted fabulously, breaking the cycle) and, as the article so clearly states, usually compound that with terrible roster decisions. One bad draft class, while certainly a set back, doesn’t doom us into the Charlotte bobcats, and even if it did, what does being paranoid about it do? You’d rather we freak out and trade for known assets? Worked out real well for all those teams who traded for vets mentioned in that article posted yesterday whining about tanking. Free Agents and Traded players turn out to be busts almost as much as 1st round draft picks, and kill your cap a whole lot more.
Mallory, no one is going to trade a real solid young player for a late round draft pick, they would trade a project. And no we’re not going to get harden or that ilk for the 6-8th pick either, so we may as well use the picks. If you are afraid of the draft, you are afraid of the only source of top end talent and bargain contracts that Cleveland has access to. We can use these picks and then still sign free agents if your so damn concerned about what losing will do to kyrie’s fragile psyche. He Should look depressed and unhappy about playing for a sucky team, it doesn’t mean he’ll forget how to ball when the team improves (ala when andy comes back). Isn’t it good that he doesn’t take losing in stride?
“Losing begets losing”
This just isn’t true. The teams that suck forever draft mediocre to poor years on end (we’ve already drafted fabulously, breaking the cycle) and, as the article so clearly states, usually compound that with terrible roster decisions. One bad draft class, while certainly a set back, doesn’t doom us into the Charlotte bobcats, and even if it did, what does being paranoid about it do? You’d rather we freak out and trade for known assets? Worked out real well for all those teams who traded for vets mentioned in that article posted yesterday whining about tanking. Free Agents and Traded players turn out to be busts almost as much as 1st round draft picks, and kill your cap a whole lot more.
Mallory, no one is going to trade a real solid young player for a late round draft pick, they would trade a project. And no we’re not going to get harden or that ilk for the 6-8th pick either, so we may as well use the picks. If you are afraid of the draft, you are afraid of the only source of top end talent and bargain contracts that Cleveland has access to. We can use these picks and then still sign free agents if your so damn concerned about what losing will do to kyrie’s fragile psyche.
“Losing begets losing”
This just isn’t true. The teams that suck forever draft mediocre to poor years on end (we’ve already drafted fabulously, breaking the cycle) and, as the article so clearly states, usually compound that with terrible roster decisions. One bad draft class, while certainly a set back, doesn’t doom us into the Charlotte bobcats, and even if it did, what does being paranoid about it do? You’d rather we freak out and trade for known assets? Worked out real well for all those teams who traded for vets mentioned in that article posted yesterday whining about tanking. Free Agents and Traded players turn out to be busts almost as much as 1st round draft picks, and kill your cap a whole lot more.
Mallory, no one is going to trade a real solid young player for a late round draft pick, they would trade a project. And no we’re not going to get harden or that ilk for the 6-8th pick either, so we may as well use the picks. If you are afraid of the draft, you are afraid of the only source of top end talent and bargain contracts that Cleveland has access to.
“Losing begets losing”
This just isn’t true. The teams that lose and lose draft mediocre to poor for years on end (we’ve already drafted fabulously, breaking the cycle) and usually compound that with terrible roster decisions. One bad draft class, while certainly a set back, doesn’t doom us into the Charlotte bobcats. Even if it did, what does being paranoid about it do? You’d rather we freak out and trade for known assets? Worked out real well for all those teams who traded for vets mentioned in that article posted yesterday whining about tanking. Free Agents and Traded players turn out to be busts almost as much as 1st round draft picks, and kill your cap a whole lot more.
If you are afraid of the draft, you are afraid of the only source of top end talent and bargain contracts that Cleveland has access to.
this comment monster really needs to go. These message boards are barely usable.
Matt -
I was able to read your posts that monster ate (I can’t release them, only Colin can since it’s his post) but I will comment on it none the less.
First, you say we’ve drafted fabulously. I’m not sure how you can say that given that TT is still very much a project (any is hardly a reliable, go to guy thus far) and that Irving was pretty obviously the number one pick in last years’ draft. Beyond that, what indication do you have that the Cavs have superior scouts? I like Gee as much as the next guy, but what we’re seeing could very well be a case of a decent guy on a terrible team, i.e. these numbers probably aren’t sustainable because, in the future, he’s probably not going to shoot 15+ times a game. He’s a fine defender, but lets not over value him yet.
When I say losing begets losing, i mean that it’s much more common for a bad team to continue to be bad despite drafting high. For whatever reason (scouting, culture, fanbase, etc.) it’s tough to get out of the doldrums once you’re there. We’ve got a good young guy in Irving, but surrounding him with actual talent is extremely important. We’re not exactly loaded with contracts, it’s ok to spend a little…
As for my statement on trading to get a player – I’m not suggesting we get a Harden type (that’s impossible) but we could get a guy like Afflalo or Kevin Martin, or someone of that ilk (not that either of those guys is available – none of us can possibly know who is being shopped right now or will be in the future) The point is getting some established talent, even if it’s slightly overpaid, is probably something we’ll have to do, unless you’re certain that all four guys we will draft are going to be ready to come in and take some pressure off Irving. But that’s unlikely, even in the best of drafts.
Time and time again we keep coming back to this argument of tanking for a few years, stocking up on talent, and then suddenly letting them loose one season. But, as I have said MANY times, the amount of luck it takes to turn into OKC make that plan nearly impossible to replicate. I’d much rather see us add talent any way possible. We’re going to need more than Kyrie, Andy, whatever TT turns into, Gee, player X from next year early pick, player X from the later pick, a bunch of second rounders, and filler. to be competitive. Next year and beyond.
All I can say is that it is hilarious to read Celtics Hub and read the groaning about the inexplicable Ryan Hollins! Nice….
Someone above commented that next year needs to be a 7 or 8 playoff seed or bust. Would agree strongly with that. No Andy does make a big difference, but, the Celtics are down Ray Allen and the Bulls are down Jalen Rose and those clubs still compete.
Perhaps the problem with the current roster is that in a year or two, some of these dudes are going to be retired (A. Parker, who should grow a head of hair and dye it red, and possibly Jamison), driftwood somewhere (Harangody, probably Walton), or back in D league or tossed as trade fodder (Skyenaga part II).
I have no idea how much “cohesion” matters but in the name of tanking a season, it is not nice for the young fellas to see so much losing.
All this junk about Jamison being a “great example for the rookies” is kind of sick, actually. Sure, he’s not a brawling Stephen Jackson or Ron Artest, but he’s also pretty used to losing in his whole career. (First round playoffs for the Wizards, beat by LeBron in 2006, whoo! etc.)
The Cavs need a quick Chinese guard to back up Kyrie — good for jersey sales overseas and a good idea, what could be worse than the present situation anyway?
When folks are healthy, who is back next year? Boobie, Kyrie, TT, Varejao, Jamison (yikes but OK, sure, you want it you got it, he’s more stable and cheaper than Gerald Wallace), Luke Walton and four new draft picks?
Please just eject Anthony Parker, Casspri needs to go also.
Any chance of stealing a bunch of players from Detroit? Is Ben Gordon insanely overpaid or something?
Cavs need to level up by consistently beating all the cellar rats, competing consistently with the Pacers and 76ers, and occasionally beating the Heat and/or Bulls. And the Celtics next year need to be Cavs’ meat. Can a Varajao/TT tandem handle an old KG? If you Cavs can scratch into 5th place in the East (hardly likely but what the hell) maybe that’s your first round match-up.
I still _hate_ Orlando, screw those guys!!!
http://celticshub.com/2012/03/27/the-ryan-hollins-reclamation-project/
hilarious…and some of them are still hanging on.
Mallory, Obviously after we use the draft picks we’ll still have cap, and I want us to use it. I would prefer we use it when we know what young assets we have and what pieces we need, but either way, yes, your right we won’t be competing with $20million in cap space.
As far as Kyrie, Andy, TT, Gee, 5th-8th pick (lets say Jeremy Lamb) and 20s pick (draymond green) and free agent x, I think we would be certain to make the playoffs in the weak east barring significant injury next year, and we’ll be a young team that will get better and better with age. You have to know Kyrie and TT will improve on their age 20 seasons, Andy and Gee aren’t on the decline, and Jameson, as useful as he is to our offense, has no business getting 30 minutes a game at this stage in his career and won’t be missed by a team that takes itself seriously.
And we’re not going to turn the 25th pick in the draft into afflolo, and we have the time to develop a lamb or zeller with the 8th pick and they both will probably be at least in the same range of player as afflolo with more upside and cheaper, so lets add them and add an afflolo type player with the cap space we’ll save. Who knows if afflolo is even available for the 8th?
Mallory, Obviously after we use the draft picks we’ll still have cap, and I want us to use it. I would prefer we use it when we know what young assets we have and what pieces we need, but either way, yes, you’re right we won’t be competing with $20million in cap space.
As far as Kyrie, Andy, TT, Gee, 5th-8th pick (lets say Jeremy Lamb) and 20s pick (draymond green) and free agent x, I think we would be certain to make the playoffs in the weak east barring significant injury next year, and we’ll be a young team that will get better and better with age. You have to know Kyrie and TT will improve on their age 20 seasons, Andy and Gee aren’t on the decline, and Jameson, as useful as he is to our offense, has no business getting 30 minutes a game at this stage in his career and won’t be missed by a team that takes itself seriously.
As far as Kyrie, Andy, TT, Gee, 5th-8th pick (lets say Jeremy Lamb) and 20s pick (draymond green) and free agent x, I think we would be certain to make the playoffs in the weak east barring significant injury next year, and we’ll be a young team that will get better and better with age. You have to know Kyrie and TT will improve on their age 20 seasons, Andy and Gee aren’t on the decline, and Jameson, as useful as he is to our offense, has no business getting 30 minutes a game at this stage in his career and won’t be missed by a team that takes itself seriously.
We have cap space to get vets Mallory, lets not waste our only opportunity to add a true stud or bargain deal by giving up draft pics for a slightly overpaid player of a caliber we could just slightly overpay ourselves in free agency.
Especially considering Veterans can be products of their environment as evidences by hundreds of regretted trades and free agent signings. Just cause they have produced in the NBA is no guarantee they likewise won’t be busts.
Yes we should explore all trade options, but it makes no sense to jump at the chance to give up draft picks for near mediocre NBA players when we have the cap room to get both.
Veterans can be products of their environment as evidences by hundreds of regretted trades and free agent signings. Just cause they have produced in the NBA is no guarantee they likewise won’t be busts.
Yes we should explore all trade options, but it makes no sense to jump at the chance to give up draft picks for near mediocre NBA players when we have the cap room to get both.
Yes we should explore all trade options, but it makes no sense to jump at the chance to give up draft picks for slightly above avergage NBA players (afflolo) when we have the cap room to get both.
Yes. Ben Gordon is insanely overpaid. The Wilson Chandler thing was nuts, but I do think it was because Grant did not want to overachieve this year. The Cavs will have a ton of cap room this year, and they’ll need to spend it wisely, or trade for a younger player. Three good draft picks would also help. Having those picks will help (which is why I’ll be rooting for the Lakers to lose in the first round). Certain teams may be looking to blow things up this year before the salary hammer comes down. Portland and Golden state both come to mind. Also, remember Gee is a free agent.
Mallory, Wilson Chandler’s contract is HORRIBLE! He signed for 9 million a year for half the decade if you include this year…no WAY he plays at 9 million a year.
After Jamison, Chandler would have been the highest paid player on our roster…I want NONE of that.
You really think four years of Wilson Chandler (which is all we could have afforded) for 9 mil a year would’ve been worse than, say, signing OJ Mayo for 13 mil over the same length?
Chandler isn’t a cancer, plays good D, and can score. He’s a bigger, stronger, MUCH richer version of Gee, who gets a ton of love on here. You need guys built like Chandler to win.
Lots of comments on this blog the past few days about “tanking” and the long term effect on a team. IMO, tanking and the “losing culture” it supposedly brings are non-provable concepts. Can anyone provide a clear cut example of tanking? Was trading Sessions tanking or getting assets for a player who’s unlikely to return? What about if they had traded Jamison? Who is organizing the tanking? The GM? The coach? The owner? Collusion between all three?
If you want to argue that once a team becomes bad, it stays bad for a long time, take a look at this list, specifically the “Active Droughts” section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_franchise_post-season_droughts
How many of these teams would you consider to fall into the “losing culture” category, and did they get there because of tanking?
Also, I noticed that Chad Ford has the Cavs taking Perry Jones at 8 in the latest mock. Talk about high risk/high reward….
Scuzz -
Interesting questions. We’re recording another podcast tonight. I’ll try to work this discussion in, because I think it’s one that isn’t easily defined but definitely exists in the NBA.
A) Stop complaining about Wilson Chandler; he was going to sign with Denver all along, whether we offered him a contract or not.
B) Irving was “obviously” the number one pick in the last draft? Either you’re an amnesiac or have a very selective memory, because i seem to recall a huge “Irving or Derrick Williams” debate leading all the way up to the draft. NOBODY said Irving was head and shoulders the number one pick over Williams.
Oh, Mallory….why do i even still read your posts?
Cranky M -
That was almost entirely created by the Williams camp. It was almost universally accepted that Irving was the guy who would go first. The only reason he wouldn’t have was lack of sample size.
Can you possibly argue that Tristan Thompson was the best possible pick for the Cavs? No. There’s no way you can simply because he’s so raw there’s no way of knowing how he’ll turn out in the future.
I’m not sure how anyone can say that Chris Grant has excelled as a GM thus far. He made a trade that essentially cost the pick 2+million over the going rate for that pick, picked an almost universally consensus number one over all, and reached for a guy at number four.
I’m not saying I think he’s a bad GM, but none of his actions point at him being a brilliant GM either.
Much like TT, the jury is still out on Chris Grant. However, with all the cap space and draft picks the Cavs have going into this offseason, there are lots of decisions to be made. I think between now and the start of next season, we’ll have an idea about how good he is.
And traded someone who was walking at the end of a non contending year for a 1st round pick (not all picks are always for sale malory, Cheap the lakers aren’t, and aren’t going to give up a pick just for cash, and luke waltons been one of our better bench players, like it or not), he traded mo williams into a better last year baron Davis and better forever Irving, and he’s at least got what looks like a productive player with his 2 1st round draft picks last year, and brought up a D-leaguer who should be a rotation player on a good team.
He’s done what exactly that was dumb? And regardless of whether you think he’s smart or dumb, if he’s dumb he can make dumb trades or free agent signings just as much as he can make poor draft picks. So stop your constant “woe is us” “the sky is falling” attitude. Its terribly annoying and a lot of what I hate about living in NE ohio. Cheer the hell up.
Keith, I think chandler is 7-7.5 mil a year. Either way I don’t think the Cavs were making an offer that Denver wasn’t going to match.
As far as moving up in the draft the Cavs don’t have enough assets to move particularly high unless they are taking back a BADDD contract. Something like giving taking back Biedrins’s contract + the 7th pick (GS doesn’t have a pick if its higher than 7th) for the Lakers’ first and Miami’s first next year might be getting close enough for GS considering that they are in cap hell (Lee, Biedrens, Bogut and Jefferson combining for 45 million next season and none come off the books until 2014) but could have a decent core if they dump Briedrins+10-15 mil to spend in FA.
Perhaps we could then turn the 7th + 6th picks into the 3rd pick, or something along those lines.
Let’s not come down too hard on Mallory. We’re all Cavs fans, right? I think he’s playing devil’s advocate on Chris Grant. I think he’s done fine so far. But you could reasonably question drafting TT and not signing (or trying to) Chandler to maybe a 7 mil/yr contract. I doubt Grant is acting alone all the time. I’m sure Byron Scott has input to certain decisions.
I never said that Grant is a great GM. I don’t think there is any way to know how good he really is for a few more years, when we see how Irving and TT develop.
And i don’t know if TT was the best player available at 4, and i don’t know that he wasn’t, either. Like i said, it will take a few years. Can you name another rookie who is definitively better than TT right now?
I’m just saying A LOT of people wanted the Cavs to take Williams number 1. And i’m saying that the general consensus was that Chandler was virtually guaranteed to go back to Denver when he finally got out of China. I never read a single word that suggested another possibe destination for him. That’s all.
The thing that gets me about the Mo Williams trade, if Lebron had stayed with the Cavs, I think they still do the same trade. Focusing on Baron, rather than on the pick, but same trade. So we could have had Kyrie and Lebron. Although it is Cleveland so, pretty sure the Clippers pick would have ended up 30 if he had stayed (even though the lottery doesn’t work like that)