Following an improbable, highly exciting three game win streak against Western Conference teams best characterized as somewhere between good and excellent; the Cavs are one game outside of the 8th seed in the East. Six of their remaining eleven March games are against teams with winning percentages below five-hundred. Anderson Varejao should return later this month. The trade deadline is a few days away – how should the Cavs respond?
While I’m not a proponent of “tanking”, the Cavs still need to focus on the future. I am super psyched about the three recent wins, especially against OKC (seriously – who saw that coming?), but the sixteen games in twenty four days in April is daunting and could very well leave this young Cleveland team outside-looking-in regardless of their mid-March moves. For me, the win streak hasn’t changed the view on trade deadline questions.
Trading Sessions still seems to be the right move. After this season, his player option likely won’t be picked up. Acquiring a first round draft pick beats the value of twenty-seven more games of Ramon.
Moving Jamison as part of a three team trade, even at the expense of taking back a contract with a year or two left on it, can have benefits. If the right deal doesn’t surface though; move on, enjoy the rest of Antawn’s time in Cleveland, and try free agency this summer.
Don’t trade anything that could be useful in the future, solely for a 2012 playoff push. Chris Kaman trade rumors come to mind.
I look forward to hearing other’s thoughts on the win streak and if it changes your perceptions of the 2012 trade deadline.
Last night’s game: whoa. Cavs played like they expected to win. They played like a playoff team. They played like they knew they could take the rockets any time they wanted. The bench was awesome, and casspi played his best game as a reserve. Also, Ramon was simply great. His line in limited minutes was very very good. If you told me last year that he’d be 41% from 3 and the best backup point in the league, I’d have said you were nuts. But here we are. It’s al most a shame we have to trade him. As the magic are holding the league hostage. I expect it ti go down to the last hour, as teams realize they’re not budging. Oh well. How long till Andy is back?
Stay the course. A full rebuild is needed. While the Cavs are only a game behind the Knicks, they are only 2.5 games or so ahead of the 5th worst team in the league. If they make the playoffs it will only be a result of the teams behind them playing worse. Getting smashed by the Bulls or Heat (dear God) and missing out on the premium talent in this draft to surround Kyrie with would be counter productive.
In the past week the Cavs have sent players to Canton and not picked up Harris’ contract. It appears a move or moves are on the way.
Taking back a bad deal for Jamison isn’t that bad of an option long term. The Cavs would lose a few extra games this year improving their lottery odds, probably pick up a draft pick along the way and when the Cavs are ready to contend they could move it for a missing piece. The Cavs will have to drastically overpay someone to come to Cleveland anyway. If the deal expires in two years it could be a nice trade chip to send to a team in cap hell (Rudy Gay?) who realize that they aren’t getting out of the first round and their owner is sick of the repeat luxury tax penalties.
It’s an interesting time of year because we actually get to see how many of these “rumors” are authentic.
I have to believe Sessions will be gone by the deadline, probably to the Lakers, Hawks, or (surprisingly) the Twolves. As far as Jamison, it sounds like he’s going to stay unless the Cavs get a great offer, which they probably won’t.
Making the playoffs wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world, but it definitely wouldn’t be good. The team is still sub-.500 and if they did manage to sneak in, it would be because of the other “contenders’” incompetance.
I can’t remember where I read it, but I think it really rings true – if the Cavs make the playoffs this year, it will be MUCH more valuable than anyone they’d get with the (likely) 12th or 13th pick (versus the 16th) – This team really, really, really wants to win – you can’t fault a team for playing hard.
It looks like Samardo is finally becoming the backup “big” we thought he could be, Jamison is the scoring machine we expected, Casspi can be a really, really good guy off the bench, Gee can actually create a shot (when he doesn’t screw up dribbling), TT is energy and a little scoring off the bench, and, well, we all know about Kyrie.
I think Sessions will be gone, but I keep reading the Cavs are working on a deal that would land them a lottery pick EVEN if they make the playoffs. That would obviously be the best case scenario. Even if this doesn’t happen, though, I think the fact that we’re winning is a much better sign than you guys are giving us credit for.
Alex – you realize we just beat two of the “truest” contenders in OKC and DEN? Denver is a sneaky good team, and obviously OKC is considered one of the favorites to win it all. That is not because of “other ‘contenders’ incompetence,” it’s because we’ve been playing very very well. And without Andy.
I cannot possibly see how anyone can be a proponent of tanking – do you want guys like Kyrie to become complacent and bored? We’re really, really competitive right now – that should only fuel him. He’s a natural winner, let the kid win. The difference between the 13th and 16th pick is so much smaller than the difference between missing the playoffs and making them. We’re not bottoming out anymore – Anthony Davis and Harrison Barnes are likely not coming, so why not keep winning?
Also, Cory, there is NO way we’re getting Rudy Gay. We’d have to give them a pick to get him, and that’s not happening. A guy like Kevin Martin is WAY more likely to happen, and I don’t even think we’ll see that come to fruition.
These opinions make no sense to me. If the Cavs are good enough to compete and make the playoffs, I think every Cavs fan should want it to happen! Experience in the playoffs can only be a good thing for our young guys. In the playoffs this year, they will have no pressure, and if they can pull out a win in one of the first couple of games, the opponent (Bulls or Heat) will have a ton of pressure. What happens to a team under pressure? Did anyone watch the finals last year?
Also, what is the big difference between pick 13 and 16 in the draft? Not a lot in my eyes.
it will be an interesting week. considering the fallout of the decision and how quickly the cavs had gone from pathetic to relevant, i am quite pleased with this short season. depending on grant’s decisions this team could become the best team nobody can see on national tv. i would be giddy though if gilbert opens up the $$$ to buy into the high lottery to guarantee a wing player.
As someone who watched Cavs teams much more talented than this fail time and time again, the Cavs don’t want the playoffs this year. As tantalizing as Kyrie has become, and as promising as Gee and Thompson can look sometimes, championship teams have multiple stars and quite a few solid-to-outstanding role players. The Cavs have neither, and since Cleveland is never going to be a prime destination for free agents, there need to be more draft picks, especially of the lottery variety.
I agree the cavs players obviously shouldn’t tank this year, professional athletes should never tank. Gotta try your hardest to improve on your craft. That doesn’t mean I don’t wish they would stop winning games though. The difference between making the playoffs and missing in the east isn’t from 15th or so to 12th, its more likely 15th to 8th, because the first 5 teams out of the playoffs in the west all still have a better record than the cavs do right now.
Is that worth building a terrible in game attitude habit and missing the playoffs for? Absolutely not. But is making the playoffs this year with no shot to contend worth holding onto expiring assets in order to make a playoff push, instead of using them to build toward the future? Hell no. The fact that we would jump 7 spots in the draft and have an outside shot at the lottery just secures this notion. Session and Jameson must go if we can get 1st round picks.
The wins definitely don’t change my perception of what we should do at the trade deadline. Despite having roster talent top to bottom that seems to be among the worst in the league, the Cavs continue to win games I expect them to lose. Although I am a big proponent of more lottery balls, in typical Cleveland fan fashion I have reached a point in the season where I am not going to get my hopes up (down) and root for a desired outcome, but just take what they give me.
Matt -
You really think we’re going to jump down to 8? I’d contend that we’re better than almost every non-playoff team in the east (Milwaukee gives us a run for our money, but they’re more a collection of players rather than a team), and I’m pretty sure you’ll see Phoenix and maybe even Utah (or even Minn) end with a worse record. I think we’d likely end somewhere around 10.
There’s still a lot of season to be played – these standings could radically shift, especially out west.
I also really think you’re underrating the benefits of winning with youth versus the crap shoot that is the NBA draft. Would you rather see our guys play gritty game after gritty game, win a few hard fought ones, scrape away in the first round of the playoffs with a win or two, and grow to understand that the playoffs are where true heroes are born, or would you rather have something like a 40% shot at getting a serviceable player.? Remember, Kevin did a great job of showing how difficult the NBA draft really can be – Are the 6 draft spots really that great of a difference, especially when winning is on the line?
I agree that Ramon should go if we can get a pick, but I think Jamison has proven that he’s probably more valuable to us than anyone else, especially given the max length players can now sign. Cap just isn’t as valuable as it once was.
Anybody who agrees with tanking is an idiot. We see how well losing kept Lebron here.. Idiots..
And I second Matt’s comment on the difference btw lottery and non-lottery picks. Most likely going to be more than just a 3 spot differential, which could cost us Lamb, Beal, and Rivers. If that were the case, I say no thanks playoffs.
John – do you really think Lamb, Beal, AND Rivers are going to be stars? Realize what you’re saying – you’d take all three of those guys, knowing that the chances that they’re more than just serviceable is relatively low, over seeing a rookie lead time challenge for the playoffs? C’mon – how cynical can you possibly be? None of us know how those guys are going to turn out – all we can know is the present, and in the present we have a team that WANTS to win. Isn’t that valuable?
I should say that WANTS to win AND is willing to fight to win. That’s a big deal in my book.
“It looks like Samardo is finally becoming the backup ‘big’ we thought he could be, Jamison is the scoring machine we expected, Casspi can be a really, really good guy off the bench” OK Mallory. I want some of the E you were on when you watched that game last night. One game is NOT a trend. I feel like quoting Winston Wolf here, but I’ll spare you.
As for the draft, it is supposed to be a very good one. This year’s Jeremy Lamb would’ve been a top five pick last year. Harrison Barnes would’ve been 2-3, and this year he’s not even in the top 5. This draft is gonna be loaded. Anyone who drafts in the lottery, and even into the teens will be getting a good player, as long as they don’t screw it up. I see Harrison Barnes as this year’s Paul Pierce: underachiever who slides because he stayed in college a year too long.
The Cavs are killing everyone right now because of their precociousness. They in the worst spot: just short of the playoffs. They either need to be buyers or sellers at the trade deadline. The middle ground is no man’s land.
Mallory, I honestly am starved for a championship, and could really care less about making the playoffs when we have about a 1% chance of getting past the first round, and roughly 0% chance of winning the whole thing. You say I’m jaded, I say I have my eye on the prize. I’ve seen tons of playoffs in my existence as a cavs fan, and its just not enough.
According to Kevin’s article you reference, if we trade sessions and/or jameson for a 1st round pick towards the end of the round, thats a 40% at adding a solid rotation player on the cheap for the long haul. Thats 40% of adding a piece to the core without suffering significant cap space. Or if we get two late 1st’s that’s 16% of doubling our current young core, or 65% of adding at least one piece. What is my price for this? giving up two players who have a 0% chance of being pieces on a championship for us, and who will be gone next year regardless. Oh ya, and also possibly missing out on an 8th seed humiliation by the hands of Lebron James. When your only goal is winning a ship as soon as possible, its a no brainer. (especially since without tawn and sessions our pick would be more like 8th, or a 15-20% better chance of adding a piece than at 15)
Kyrie will get plenty of playoff experience, and sooner than later, why are you so impatient that he needs to do it as a rookie? Kid is 19, we got him locked up for 4 more years, no need to be so hasty.
A win-win situation for both the tankers and the non-tankers would be (if the rumors are true) to trade Antawn Jamison (and maybe something like the Hornets 2nd round pick or Heat 1st) for Emeka Okafor and their Minny pick. Than we could get a lottery pick and still make the playoffs. Plys, if we end up getting picks around 10 and 15, and the cavs want someone at 5-6, we would have enough assets to trade up. But I doubt NO does that trade.
Constantly trying to be the best we could possibly be RIGHT NOW all the time during the lebron years killed us. Even if he would have stayed, he was right in recognizing we had little flexibility to help his supporting cast in the next 2 years, and had a hard time bringing in free agents, even with a premier talent on hand.
Lets learn from history and not repeat it. Lets use our uniquely human skill and sacrifice a little now for a lot of good later. Lets get good players on the cheap the only way we can, through the draft. Lets let right now sag a little so that when the time is right we find ourselves well prepared. And then lets win ourselves a championship.
Hoopsdogg – Samardo has had a few good games recently. He’s not going to blow anyone away, but he’s played some OK hustle D and hit a couple shots here and there, which, at his talent level, is about all you can ask for.
Matt -
I have always advocated for trader Sessions and Jamison for draft picks – don’t get my desire to win confused with a desire to hang on to assets. That being said, if I had to trade Jamison for a mid second round pick, I wouldn’t do it. Anything worse than a first isn’t worth it. He’s literally the only consistent scorer for Kyrie to rely on – we don’t want to force Kyrie to do too much too soon – he’s still young and impressionable. I’d rather see him score 20 points evenly over four quarters than become a chucking machine, which could very well happen once Jamison goes.
Additionally, I think the smartest comparison to what we have now is the Bulls team of Derrick Rose’s rookie year. No one really believed they had much, but the fact that Rose was able push that team into the playoffs and then, amazingly, nearly force the Celtics out meant a lot for their future – Rose grew a TON during that playoff series, and I could see a similar coming out party for Kyrie is we can make it. Maybe we wont push whoever we face quite as hard, but if you think this team isn’t going to fight hard, you and I greatly disagree on the makeup of this team.
Iso – Although I’ve read the Okafor trade is unlikely to happen, I see that scenario as the best possible – Okefor is actually a pretty decent player. Imagine a front court of him and Andy – that’d be some scary D.
I still would love a shot to get Marvin Williams–Sessions and Cavs 2nd (the 2nd one) to ATL for Williams and ATL’s 1st rounder? I don’t know why I am so high on Williams, I think a change of scenery would do him a world of difference. We get to keep Jamison, add Williams and a #1 for Sessions–he isn’t sticking around after the season anyhow. This could be a great steal for us…imagine still making the postseason and playing Miami in the first round? I think the Q would come unglued!
Yeah if that trade were to somehow happened I’d instantly become a non-tanker. Do you think that New Orleans would more likely accept that trade if they made the pick top 5 or top 6 protected?
(the NO trade of course)
I can’t see why we would take the trade if the pick was protected – Okafor isn’t viewed as a piece for the long distance future (this could be debated, but I’m assuming that’s the general view point) so the Cav’s brass probably wouldn’t do it for anything less than a pick this draft. I’m also under the assumption that, Given Kyrie’s progress this season, the front office is probably most interested in making some impact this off season – the idea is, when you know you’ve got a star talent, not to leave him with makeshift pieces for too long – that’s how you make players unhappy. They may not blow all their cap space too soon, but I’d say this is easily the most important off season since the Larry Hughes one.
Obviously I don’t agree with tanking, and I’ve already said I would take an overachieving, undertalented team to the opposite (a la Washington) every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I just feel this is still a team that will be picking in the 8-9 range, and I would easily choose that over the 15th pick and getting swept by the Heat. Sure, there isn’t much difference between 12 and 15, but there’s a big difference between 8 and 15. There are a ton of teams with winning percentages close to ours, and four games could be the difference between those seven spots. I’d give up the four games to get the seven spots, of course with the team giving 100%, but losses nonetheless.
And remember this gem: “I had a bad feeling this result was coming. Monday marks our last opportunity for the next few games to even stand a chance against our opponent. After that it’s against Denver, OKC, and Houston (who has been pretty decent). Watch out, ’cause it could get very, very ugly.” We really have no idea what’s going to happen, so don’t get caught up in all the ups-and-downs of an unpredictable, young, growing team and keep your eyes on the prize (in 2016).
I hadn’t heard the New Orleans trade rumor. Probably won’t happen, but I’d suppor that trade. Bring in Okafor for a couple of years to maintain some legitimate NBA talent on the front line while not tying up cap space past 2014… draft two wings in the lottery this year…let the Irving, Gee, Thompson, two lottery wing core grow for a couple of years…keep working via trade or free agency on a long term addition to the frontcourt. Works for me.
If you guys have set 2016 as the prize…I…I’m left speechless. I’m writing about this for the near future, but you can’t possibly be content to write that. That’s no way to root for a team, regardless of how you believe a championship team is built. If you watch sports for that far in the future, what’s the point of even watching at all?
I admit I was wrong about the last three games, but, honestly, did anyone see the Cavs beating Denver and OKC at home, and then kicking Houston’s butt? I seriously doubt a single person believed that would happen. I’ll go as far as to say that those wins show’d way more moxie than even I believed we were capable of. Obviously we’ll have ups and downs, but three straight convincing wins mean a lot. Again, this season could turn either way at any moment, but you have to at least watch for small sample sizes. If you don’t, why do you even read blogs? What’s the point of watching games? Just check composite stat lines every week…
I know that’s an extreme way of looking at things, but, as you’ll read in my next post, being a fan has to mean more than just taking account of what has happened at the end of any given season, then adjusting your future expectations accordingly and setting a due date.
There is absolutely NO pressure this offseason. Kyrie can get unhappy all he wants, he’s not going anywhere for 4 and a half years. Its much more important to make sure he’s happy in year 5 of his deal than year 2 and we’d best remember that.
Do we need to do everything we can to contend before Kyrie’s rookie deal is up? absolutely, and to be safe it’d be best to compete in 14/15 so he can sign an extension before his rookie deal is up, but there is absolutley no pressure to prove anything to Kyrie until the 14/15 season, and when 14/15 roles around it would be nice to have the best possible team around him to convince him to stay. At that point in time, what the teams future looks for beyond 2015, and if we are competing THEN, will have infinitely more impact on kyrie’s decision than if he made the playoffs his first 2 years.
Mallory, I’d do that trade because I don’t see Minny (even without Rubio) falling THAT far.
Matt –
I’m not talking about appeasing Kyrie’s happiness, I’m talking about the culture of a team. How long does a team have to lose, and how long does a player have to fail to make a leap, before you consider that team a bottom feeder.
I guess a good question to ask is, do you think if Kyrie was drafted by SAC or Washington (instead of Wall) he’d have as great an impact?
I feel like right now culture is as big a part of this team winning as any individual player is…
I also want to make something completely clear – I don’t think it was the fact that we tried to spend money that made Cleveland a bad team during the Lebron era – that’s a common misconception. It was WHO we spent money on that made us bad. Instead of making smart signings we spend crazily on players who weren’t worth even close to what they should be.
I think if Grant believes Wilson Chandler is worth 11 mil a year, then he might actually be worth 11 mil a year, even to us.
I think a lot of people are making some assumptions in thinking that our team will be much better in the coming years and all of the other teams will be worse. Jamison is our leading scorer and he will be gone. Andy was having his best season before the injury and he should be coming back rested and healthy before the end of the regular season. Kyrie is already playing like one of the superior PGs in the league so it will be tough to increase our expectations drastically. And, above all, the Cavs are playing like a team.
Should we assume this lottery rookie will take place of the current leading scorer (Jamison) or possibly the best backup PG in the league (Sessions)? And by replace, I think it assumed that the rookie will be drastically better. Should we then wait another season for him to mature before we try to make the playoffs? By that time, Andy may be on the downside of his career (who knows if Andy can stay at the same level and be healthy at the end of a full 82 games next season). When we finally do make the playoffs, should we assume that they won’t go anywhere since it is their first experience? Now, it’s starting to get close to Kyrie’s last season under contract. Should we assume he will resign? I think we’ve been down this road…
One injury next season and everyone will be talking about tanking again. When you have a chance to make the playoffs, you take it. Let the lottery talk happen after the season.
just so you know mallory, I would like us to be competing by 2014, not 2016, but I would also like us to be competing in both of those years and beyond. I don’t see how setting the championship as the main goal, and planning to build a base that will compete for it for the long haul, is “no way to root for a team”. Maybe not when you are an adolescent, but when you are a grown man rooting for a Cleveland championship, you know how hard it is and you know how rare it is to set yourself up in the position Cleveland is in right now.
Seeing Cleveland squander that to become the Atlanta hawks is in no way appealing to me. Does it make the day to day grind of the NBA regular season less enthralling when you know you are rebuilding and holding off on a major move until the time is right? Absolutely. Its the “way” I prefer to root, and it certainly doesn’t seem absurd to me to set my goal at a championship as soon as possible. It seems absurd to me for a fan to NOT have that as their main goal.
That’s not to say i wasn’t having a blast watching us dethrone OKC on Saturday night, it was a joy. Getting caught up in the moment is part of being a fan. But it doesn’t paint the whole picture, as your posts would seem to suggest.
I still think that we should try to get that Minny pick (even if its protected) so we don’t have to worry about making the playoffs.
Matt -
I think what you (and so many others) fail to see is the amount of luck it takes to become a true contender. Getting multiple stars in the draft is FAR more difficult than being smart and making moves based on the makeup of a team. You seem to suggest that there is one way to build a team, and that’s by being bad until the time is right. I’m not sure where your proof is that this is the right method, but I can’t think of a team that did it this way, especially intentionally.
As Antawn alluded to, so many pieces have to fall into place for us to dramatically improve in the future – to assume that all of these things will occur if we miss the playoffs is slightly off base – losing will not make us better, talent, team chemistry and personality, and perserverance will. How you value all three of these things likely make up how you view the rebuilding process going forward, but, at least to me, waiting for next year every year seems like a recipe for disaster. What happens if we draft a dud this year? Should we spend another year “tanking”? The future is so unpredictable – there’s no way to know for sure what it’s going to bring. This is why I make the argument that the development of a winning mentality, especially when there are signs that it exist, are far more definite than any draft pick can be.
Becoming Atlanta (or, what, Orlando?) versus Chicago and Miami is such a thin line. Imagine if Marvin Williams had been a star – We’d be singing a very different tune. Imagine if Deng didn’t make a huge leap the last couple of years – could we possibly call Chicago as true a contender as we do?
The point is, yeah, tanking is great in a perfect world – getting a ton of good, talented young guys right now and then having them learn to play together for a couple years, then unleashing them would be the best possible decision. But the world is not perfect – players develop unpredictably, chemistry shifts, etc. etc. etc. Just look at Sacramento for the proof.
Sorry for the grammar issues today, by the way guys – I’m doing a million things at once.
As far as the losing culture you are so concerned about Mallory and Antawn, I just don’t see it. Kyrie has been sooo special so far I just can’t see him ever being a satisfied loser. He’s Hungry, and Andy doesn’t have quit in him. They compete hard every night, and kyrie takes over in the 4th. I’m just not concerned that when the talent is there, that Kyrie and Andy won’t be able to push that talent to near maximum. I could be wrong, I just don’t see it. Again, if they were taking games off to tank on purpose, I would definitely be concerned. But thats not its not whats happening and its not what I’m advocating. I’m advocating the front office to make moves to sacrifice now to better contend by the 2014 time frame.
Antawn, I know you probably disagree with that username, but Jameson (the last couple games aside) is a pretty awful player. While the cavs currently don’t have a player that can get up there own shot as much as jameson, its not hard to find a more efficient scorer that shoots almost as much, and might even play a little D. That is pretty easily upgrade-able through free agency, maybe not at PF, but most SGs have more efficiency than jameson and aren’t revolving doors in the post. Losing sessions will hurt, undoubtedly, but its inevitable. He’s going to want a starting spot or way more money than any backup to kyrie irving is worth in a salary cap world. We have to turn him into something if we can.
Man, why can’t we just watch the games and see what happens. Bitching isn’t going to keep the team from winning or losing–we have no power to affect any of the results. Just watch and take what the team gives you!
Kevin I’m taking what they’re giving me, I’ve got no problem with how the season has played out thus far, but debating sports and strategy is at least half the fun of being a fan.
And Mallory, every small market team that’s competed for a championship recently has done it with a core obtained through the draft, high picks or not. Thats all I know. Well I also know that with all the picks coming up we will draft a couple duds, which is why we should get as many picks as possible, so we can cast the duds aside and still have young guns and cap room for that one last piece. The draft is a crap shoot, who knows what the future holds, but increasing your odds is all you can do. To me trading players with no future here for draft picks means the same thing as “being smart and making moves based on the makeup of a team.” when the make-up of a team is about to break up regardless, and has no shot at competing currently.
Thats what I’m advocating, the increased draft position and worse record this year are both just byproducts, which happen to also help the long term future of the team, as I just don’t see Kyrie and Andy ever letting the sacremento/charlette/whatever mentality have any place in their locker room, regardless of missing the playoffs a whopping 2 years in a row. Now if they themselves were coasting or taking days off, I’d be remiss. Luckily that is not the case.
I’m impressed by all the discussion on this. Lots of people are really engaged in the team right now.
In my mind, there’s certainly a difference between trading Sessions & Jamison and tanking. Any trade involving Jamison has something coming back to Cleveland. Some rumors of trading Sessions involve something coming back. Also Varejao will return. If Sessions and Jamison are traded, Cleveland will be allright for the last 25 games of this season. The team will continue to be inconsistent, winning games it shouldn’t and losing games it should, and the culture won’t be ruined in under six weeks. Tanking is trying to lose on purpose; considering trading veteran players that are not sticking aroud is smart.
Also, I don’t think that competitiveness is more than one year away (2012 – 2013) under pretty much any scenario. The Cavs have Kyrie, Gee, Varejao, Thompson and three of the top 40 draft picks in this year’s draft. With some trades, that number could become 4 or 5 of the top 40 plus any players that are returned for Jamison & Sessions. All of that would be almost certain to produce a couple of valuable role players for next season. Plus even if the Cavs take back a contract for Jamison, they can add some free agents.
So this season they’re the 11th best team in the East, next season they’re the 7th best, the year after that 5th…I don’t think that trading Jamison and Sessions is deferring competitiveness (perhaps other than for 6 weeks, when they may not be that bad anyways).
Kevin,
I agree with Matt that debating what the team should do, especially during a re-building time, is half the fun of being a fan. That’s just an opinion obviously. Watching the Cavs beat the Thunder is also alot of fun though.
It looks like Matt and I are on the same page on most of this one. It will be interesting to see what happens at the trade deadline.
Lets be clear about two things:
One – The only reason we can even say “missing the playoffs a whopping 2 years in a row” is because Kyrie is such a supreme talent that we even have a shot. Now if Kyrie is even a quarter less of a star than he currently is, we’re probably talking about tanking for Davis.
Two – Like I said before, I am completely in support of trading Sessions. If this means we lose more games, then I guess so be it. I would not make the trade for anything less than a first round pick, but if we get that, it’s worth doing.
Now, the idea of “tanking” seems to take on two very distinct factions – there’s the one that says “we want to see this team lose because it means better things for the future. That OKC game is just hurting our future” – I doubt anyone would openly admit on this blog to being disappointed that we beat OKC, but I suspect that there are a few people out there who, right now, on a nightly basis, root for us to lose.
The second faction are those who embrace losing, but on a night by night basis root for wins. Obviously I’d say I side closer to this mentality, and I’m pretty sure most people on here would as well. Still, what confuses me about thinking this way is how they view this season as a success. You can talk about the future all you want, but if you’re watching the games on a nightly basis (for more than just entertainment value – i.e. because of your invested interest in the team’s future” and still rooting for them to win, then you must have a self-defined assessment of what would make this season a success.
For me, at our current state as a team, this season would be an ultimate success if we made the playoffs. Honestly, it’s already a success in my book – we got our star player – no matter what happens from here out I’m at least mildly pleased. But if we make the playoffs, I think you’ll see something out of Kyrie that even outshines what he’s done thus far.
This is why tanking, to me, especially when you root for them nightly, seems like a conflicting belief. I’m not saying you’re wrong, because I have no way of knowing who is right. I’m merely saying that, from what I’ve seen, the smartest rout is creating the best team you can based on what you have (a la the Spurs’ method) and trying to climb the mountain using the clearest rout you can see.
I think we’re probably closer to seeing
There is no reason to be the 8th seed in the playoffs and get rocked by the Heat or Bulls…not my cup of tea.
I know people compare the Cavs this year to the Bulls of a few years ago, but remember…the Bulls had young pieces in Deng AND Noah when they drafted Rose.
I don’t care about Jamison, Parker, or Gibson getting back to the playoffs. This team needs a high pick to improve. Jamison, who is doing alot of our heavy lifting, is going to be out the door this summer.
Whoops about that closer to seeing – meant to delete it.
Kevin – I agree with you completely on projecting our future. It’s silly to look farther than one year anyway – so many things could happen to create a vastly different landscape than the one we’re looking at now. No matter what, I think we should be competing next year. If we can do it this year, I’ll be happy, but if not, I’m not going to be destroyed.
Really, the simplest answer to all of the debate is just seeing Antawn go. If he goes, we have no real shot at doing anything against the better teams in the east and probably fall to that 6-8 slot.
But trading Jamison begs the question – does his professionalism bring something to the table that would be lost if he left? I have to believe that he’s at least mentoring our young guys – how important is a mentor to the growth of a young player?
Mallory,
I don’t think 25 games worth of mentoring will define the Cavs’ future.
But do you think 25 games of Kyrie dishing to Casspi, only to have him brick a shot, will affect it?
As for 2016, I think that’s a terrible terrible goal. The goal should be much shorter since we’ve already gotten the franchise guy. The problem with 2016 is that 2014-2015 is the last year that Kyrie and Tristan are on their rookie deals. After that, tack 10 million per onto Kyrie’s deal, and who knows what else on top of Tristan’s deal. We want to be be contender ready by 2013-2014. Andy will want a new deal, if he’s still on the team, and anyone who we sign right now will probably want a new deal too.
Oklahoma City is a good example of the problem with the four year plan. They are very soon going to find the problem with having too many good players coming off of rookie deals. Either Ibaka or Harden will have to go, or one of them will have to take less than they are worth. With the coming hardish cap, there will be much less wiggle room. For the Cavs to take 15 or so million away from that for guys getting their first extensions will effectively eliminate two high level role players unless they are replaced with good players on rookie deals. The goal should be to draft well this offseason, get a lot of young players with upside through trades, free agency and drafting; hopefully draft a piece in 2013 (Shabbazz Muhamed anyone?), and then get a couple veterans in the offseason and be ready to ball in 2013-2014, which will give us two years before Kyrie and Tristan’s pay raises kick in.
I don’t think people on this site realize how good Kyrie is. Crunch time production is the new #1 metric for superstars, and Kyrie is already, AS A ROOKIE, top ten in the league. That is ELITE. You’re telling me he’s not going to want to get the heck out of dodge if we waste four years before we let him ball in the playoffs? The rebuild is going to come fast. We just have to trust Chris Grant to be smarter than Danny Ferry. So far he’s doing ok.
Also, I want to be clear that I’m not arguing for Jamison to stay (maybe a little, but only because I think we need to keep someone who can score around). I’m actually legitimately asking these questions because I simply don’t know the answers.