Podcast Episode 143: Until We Meet Again, Uncle Drew
2017-08-22https://soundcloud.com/ctb-5/episode-143-until-we-meet-again-uncle-drew
Happy Trails, Kyrie. With the news of Mr. Irving’s trade to the Celtics we sounded the conch and Tom Pestak, Ben Werth, Nate Smith, and EvilGenius assembled in the podcast booth to break it all down. We all gave our knee jerk reactions to the trade and gave our yays or nays to Isaiah Thomas, Jay Crowder, (up the) Ante Zizic, and the Nets’ 2018 draft pick. We also discussed the enigma that is Kyrie Irving and whether this trade makes the Cavs better in the long term and short term. Playing the imp’s advocate was Tom Pestak who held out hope that Isaiah Thomas and Jay Crowder could improve the Cavs. The rest of us were more… skeptical.
Other topics included: are the Cavs’ still a finals team? What are LeBron’s plans for the Summer of 2018? (Including some inside dirt on the Lakers situation). What is going to happen with the rest of the roster? Can Boston beat the Cavs in the playoffs, (or are they even the East’s second best team anymore)? Are the Cavs’ still a finals team? We take on all this and more as we wish a fond farewell to Uncle Drew.
As always, listen above, on Soundcloud, iTunes, or Google Play.
Well it looks like we aren’t going to get to IT2K, but it was a noble effort.
Getting tired of David Griffin commenting on the Cavs. Wish he would just STFU. Wonder how much he makes from NBA TV
You sound like Cols!
I would if I repeated the same comment about ten other times !
One tenth of a Cols is 100 milliCols in the metric system.
I thought that interview was pretty reasonable and also informative. If we are trying to figure out what is going down, some informed insider info is a big plus. I see no evidence that he is putting out bad info, like Grant was rumored to have done. What has become on Grant? Maybe he is on WalkAbout.
Agreed. The new images vs old images idea was good stuff & a much more reasonable explanation than the C’s being deceiful or the Cavs trying to extort another pick. He said it was a good deal & one he would have made. What is the beef?
1806. A new record. You guys are the greatest.
Wonder why we never called Kyrie “2K”
http://gamerekon.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/2k-logo.jpg
I think IT’s Fathead is bigger than life size…
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How much harder is a hip to fix than a tooth anyway?
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Damn…. 215 comments seems so close, yet so far….
1800 in a flash…
http://www.1800tequila.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/1800-jre-og.jpg
EG!!!! YOU DA MAN!!!!
Who’s up for some salary-cap rules? Anyone?
http://modelsportsfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/salary-cap.jpg
Dust of those paint chips:
“If the most recent images of Isaiah were as far back as the playoffs, a new set of images now will create the ability to compare and contrast, and see how things have improved.” This is why it would be important to know when the Celtics had most recently examined Thomas and how thorough their evaluation was (which I don’t believe anyone has reported). Did they have pictures that were more recent than the playoffs? If not, then being 100% transparent with the Cavs before the trade doesn’t really count for much. It would basically amount to: “We don’t really… Read more »
I think the Celts have not seen IT since the end of the playoffs. Forgot where I read that.
Very good point. Also, that scenario would include Boston keeping themselves willfully in the dark about ITs current state. Especially if the plan was to deal him all along.
This should be 1776!
As much as I don’t think it will happen, I think the Cavs should walk away from this. It doesn’t sound to me like IT will play this year, and if he does, he is unlikely to be at the same level. As an undersized point guard his career is likely short anyway, and it’s highly unlikely that we would resign him unless LeBron decides that he likes playing with him. A draft pick is a lottery ticket – and most of the time it’s not particularly valuable. Zizic is essentially a huge gamble as well. Maybe I’m much more… Read more »
You are forgetting the middle ground of extra goodies, which is the whole point. As far as walking away, you do that if you have another deal waiting in the wings.
If the IT deal goes through before we get to 2K, then there will be a new thread.
Never!
We’re posting every article on this thread.
Lol. That would be amazingly hilarious.
NBA2K…
http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/577800/header.jpg
The Cavs shouldn’t back down because they’re doing Ainge a favor: They’re providing a healthy point guard AND they’re saving Ainge from the sign-or-don’t-sign conundrum with Thomas next summer. He won’t have to choose between doing the smart thing (let IT walk) and doing what the fans want (sign him!).
I take the latest from Woj as good news. If the Cavs are no longer seeking Tatum, Brown, or the Lakers pick, then I don’t think the IT concerns are on the season-ending, career-threatening side of the scale. If they were, we’d demand more & void if they balked. This late first/2nd talk has me thinking more of a delay. A late 1st would be a nice cherry. I think the deal gets done with or without it.
Lets move on to trying to find a taker for Shump.
I take the latest Woj as a muddle. And this is a type of injury where there can be a lot of uncertainty. So the Cavs should take a hard line because they’re taking on a lot of risk.
If the Cavs take a hard line this thread will definitely get to 2K.
Come celebrate IT2K with newmanium
It’s a tribute to the un-hot, cool, mentholated takes of CtB that one-third of the responses to the trade poll are “Too Soon to Tell.” Wouldn’t get that at too many other sports sites.
That’s the truth though. A lot depends on Thomas’s health and how the pick is either dealt or more importantly whether we luck out in the lottery draw and actually get a top three pick.
Absolutely. I meant nothing but respect.
Just here for the IT2K.
Nothing new to say, just doing my part to contribute to IT2K before new post
Well done!
For the record, this was Ainge’s response last week when he was asked whether Thomas’s injury figured into the Celtics’ decision to trade him: “Um, I don’t — you know, it, some. There’s going to be probably a little bit of a delay for Isaiah as he starts the season this year, but — um — I think that Isaiah should be fine and healthy as the season goes along.” That’s a lot of hemming and hawing. On a scale of 1 to 10, it leaves me at about a 3 in terms of confidence that Thomas will be a… Read more »
Seriously, WTF are we doing? No reports of us asking for a player. No reports that the C’s weren’t forthcoming. Reports are they were. No reports that his being able to play this year is in doubt. No reports the hip is career threatening. Have we even asked for a pick?
I would guess they have been contacting other teams and gauging offers. We also don’t know the cavs haven’t talked to Boston. That would likely be kept to those that were involved in the negotiations, Gilbert, Altman, Ainge so leaks might not reliably get out if both organizations are competent.
The time for talking to other teams and gauge offers is BEFORE YOU AGREE TO A DEAL. Absent info on the hip we don’t have, whick is certainly possible, we are just damaging ITs value & ticking his camp off. We need to explain ourselves after this is over & make nice with ITs camp. We need him to contend this year & if things go well, him being willing to re-sign would help.
Right. How would Woj know if the Cavs talked to the Celts or not? Woj does come up with a lot of scoops, but how? Maybe here there is no one spilling any beans.
But there does seem to be doubt about IT’s ability to play. This is from Woj’s latest:
Ever since Thomas’ physical with the Cavaliers on Friday, there has been significant uncertainty within the organization about when — or if — Thomas could play this season, league sources told ESPN. Those doubts led to Cleveland seeking additional compensation from the Celtics.
Fine. We think there is doubt. Perfectly valid. Then ask for a sweetener. No reports we have asked for anything. Or void the deal & call the Bucks. I get the game of brinksmanship, but there has to be an ask. Yes?
Sure. Also from Woj:
Cleveland is no longer seeking one of the Celtics’ top young players or significant draft picks, league sources said. The Cavaliers could be inclined to complete the deal for a late first-round pick or second-round considerations, league sources said.
Cavs and celts playing poker. One who blinks first is caving in.
Or the famous game of “Hip Chicken”!
http://www.hipchickfarms.com/wp-content/themes/hipchickfarms/img/logo.png
IF THE TABLES WERE TURNED AINGE / CELTIC FANS WOULD BE SVREMIN FOR MORE / REASSURANCE IN THE TRADE THAT IS WHAT IRRITATES ME —–AINGE KNOWS / REALIZES I.T. COULD BE OUT FOR A LONGER PERIOD/ NOT RETURN TO HIS SKILL LEVEL —-BUT THINKS THAT IS OK FOR THE CAVS TO ” MAKE THAT GAMBLE “—-BULLS H-T !!—-AT LEAST THROW IN THAT LATE 1ST ROUND DRAFT PICK FOR A LITTLE COMPENSATION IF I.T. CAN ‘T PLAY
OK– READ THE WOJBOMB—-BUT I DON’T THINK ‘IT’ OR DOCTORS KNOW HOW LONG HE WILL BE OUT FOR—-IT IS A GAMBLE — DO WE WANT TO ” GAMBLE ” ON A FRANCHISE TURNING TRADE —-THIS TRADE HAS TO BE A SURE / LEGITIMATE THING —–WOULD BE MORE SUPPORTIVE OF TRADE IF CAVS DEMAND MORE JUST AS A REASSURANCE AND IF AINGE DOESN’T UNDERSTAND THAT THEN HE DOES WANT TO SCREW THE CAVS AND HE CAN GO POUND SALT !!!——-EVIL WHERE ARE YOU— WE NEED SOME OF YOUR INFINITE WISDOM IN ALL THIS !!
WOJBOMB to get us to 2,000. We can do it!
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20501325/isaiah-thomas-says-return-hip-injury-same-player
I do feel for the guy. He has been jerked around more than any player I can remember. Tough stuff. Hope he comes back strong, ideally for the cavs sometime this season if Ainge is reasonable, but if not, wherever he ends up.
Absolutely agree. You gotta respect a guy who excels despite being a foot under the average height. This might be the end for him. Almost surely ends any chance of making big $$$.
Of course IT is going to say his hip is fine.
If you believe IT, Ainge, league sources, and some sources out of Cleveland that the C’s were forthcoming & no doctor has told IT that the injury negatively affects him long term, then we should take the dang deal. Period. IT is the best player we’ve been rumored to get back. Further, that Nets pick is likely to land us a better player than Middleton or Bledsoe (be it this year or next). Throw in Crowder + Zizic and this is the best offer. Time for the Cavs to get this done & make up with IT. His engine is… Read more »
You think he will be here by the end of next summer? I doubt it, unless the cavs are out of their minds and throw more than 12 million a year at him. That even might be steep for a 29 year old 5’9″ guard with a history of hip problems. So is a few months of a recovering IT valuable as a rental until another team gives him a 17 million a year offer? Doubt LBJ stays for a draft pick alone. A rookie that shows a ton of potential this season would be one thing. A possibility of… Read more »
Haha. Thomas isn’t better th an any of those guys.
That is like saying: “This just in, gravity still points down”. What else is he going to say?
Sorry about the lack of content. CtB is on strike till the trade situation is resolved….
Only kidding. We should have something up tomorrow.
This is a naked ploy to hit 2,000 comments! And I fully support the decision.
I am commenting away until we hit the patriotic number, 1776.
You guys are still getting hella traffic right now haha clearly no love lost. You guys work hard.
HaHaHa: Poor Cols is still holding his breath and missing all the fun!
I side with Gilbert on this. Although I don’t think it’s fair for the public to pay $70 M in taxes for a renovation, it’s much better than getting threatened by a potential new owner to pay $700 M for a new facility in ten years. The group that opposed this issue, including the town drunk councilman Zack Reed, wanted $, and to turn it political for the upcoming mayorial election.
I am always amused when grown adults appeal to notions of naive notions of “fairness” in situations like this. Pro sports is a big business that adds huge economic value to major cities. Cities, therefore, compete with each other to lure those pro sports teams to their locality. If your city chooses to make a less attractive offer to your team than another competing city, it might lose that team to the competing city. Appealing to “fairness” and acting like we won some “moral” victory by blocking public funding is silly. If you think Cleveland is better with the Cavs,… Read more »
Would be nice to know publicly what exactly the renovations are down to the blueprint specs. If a city is paying for something, the exact budget and contracts for every single contractor and every single nail that goes in should be public record. But it is doubtful it will be. What exactly are they doing to the building? What are they replacing, updating, or upgrading? Does anyone have this knowledge publicly or is this a black box which money goes into and is never accounted for in any detailed way?
Exterior renovations seem superfluous.
Looking at the details, seems entirely unnecessary and pointless.
And I don’t even live in Ohio anymore, so it won’t affect me. But from the outside, I don’t see the point with what they are doing. They just hosted the RNC. Clearly the current arena was enough to work for that massive gathering.
What about the NBA All Star game Cleveland is vying for? I read somewhere that the league offices require the Arena to be renovated.
I hope they hosed it out afterwards.
The NBA commissioner has said that Dan needs to renovate the facility if he wants to host an all-star game in the 2020’s. By 2027, the Q will probably be the oldest arena in the NBA, and if Dan were to sell the Cavs you could be looking at a situation where the new owner will take the highest bidder and move the team to that city.
What about Madison Square Garden?
The Garden went through a $1 billion renovation a few years ago.
I’m sure they’ve had several renovations.
Exactly, and I’m pretty sure this is similar to what the Indians and Browns have done.
Agree with Hot Sauce.
How good is Brogdon compared with the other young point guards like Ball, Fultz, Fox, Smith, Simmons? I know he won ROY in a pretty weak class but I guess I’m wondering how much of a haul Brogdon/Middleton is than IT/Crowder for THIS year only.
Brogdon has nowhere near the potential of those guys, but he might be a better player this year. Those rookies you listed, other than maybe fox, are very likely future all stars at some point. Middleton is better than Crowder. He is a superior shooter and offensive player and a very good lengthy defender. Brogdon is obviously better than IT if IT can’t play until March or April or has to have surgery and can’t play at all. Obviously, IT is better than Brogdon period if he is healthy and able to play. The Boston trade probably is better regular… Read more »
Middleton would be a 6’8 SG who is a career 40% shooter from 3pt range and shot 43% last season. He could be an awesome piece on this team. However, he’s not a star player and as the best piece back for Kyrie, it’s somewhat underwhelming. I would rather we fleece Ainge and turn IT into Brown/Tatum and a pick, or something like that. But, I would rather Middleton/Brogdon/pick than injured IT (if he’s going to be useless) and Crowder and the Brooklyn pick. We are still the second best team in the NBA and have perhaps our last year… Read more »
I’m kind of feeling like this at this point too. I just want something done before Bron has the guys down to Cali. Important team time there.
100% IN AGREEMENT WITH GORDON
Please. Walk. Away. There is simply no reason to trade Kyrie for Crowder + Brooklyn pick. If IT is not serviceable, find a different trade partner.
Word. Danny Ainge is a grease ball, buyer be ware.
And, he tried to bite Tree Rollins’ finger off.
And threw a ball at either Robert Horry’s or Sam Cassell’s head during an inbounds (can’t remember which).
WE ALL GET CAUGHT UP WITH OUR EMOTIONS WITH OUR CAVS / CLEVELAND TEAMS—–JUST WANT TO TAKE TIME OUT AND SAY OUR PRAYERS ARE WITH YOU IN HOUSTON AND SURROUNDING AREAS—ANYTHING PEOPLE CAN DO TO HELP WE NEED TO—JUST SENT MY RED CROSS CHECK TO THEM !!!
For sure. Important to keep perspective on things.
They should put the Arena referendum on the 2018 election. Part of why the didn’t want to continue with this effort is they didn’t want the city to pay 800K to have a special election just for this issue.
Anyway, Cavs aren’t out of their lease till 2027, right around LeBron’s retirement.
If they’re under contract through 2027, they should do the renovations in 2025 and sign an extension around then. At least then they get another 6 years out of the building before asking the public to pony up tax dollars.
Boston has a ton of assets. While the IT situation may be messy, and it may be difficult to get another star (Davis), they have the assets to do it.
If we get the BKN pick, do we have what it takes to get Davis? Is Shump, IT, Frye, and the BKN unprotected pick plus maybe another pick we get from Boston enough to get Davis if they implode? We could have a starting five of (Insert random PG), JR, Bron, Love, Davis. That is a BIG lineup. How does AD do typically against GS? I haven’t seen him play them much.
New Orleans isn’t moving Davis unless he demands a trade or he is on his last year and there’s no choice.
They aren’t getting Davis with their assests. Their best asset is either Tatum or the Brooklyn pick which is not locked in as a number 1. You aren’t getting Davis even with both those and Crowder and Thomas included. Davis is basically untradeable being on a long term deal and a top 5-6 player in the NBA. They could always dream though.
You don’t think NO thinks about scrapping it all and cashing in if this doesn’t work out? Everyone is, unfortunately, viewing this all thru the “can we compete with GS” lens, especially in the WC.
Nah. They two picks in next year’s draft which could easily be top 5 (Nets & Lakers). They have a glut at SF behind Hayward (Crowder, Brown, Tatum). They have their own 1sts. They have a Memphis pick that could be low lotto in 2019. A 2019 Clips pick. And if IT gets back & plays decent, they have him.
Two top 5 picks + Crowder + Brown + another future 1st = paydirt easy.
You underestimate the value of a known quantity. Davis is on a whole different tier than Kyrie. Not even close. He is on a long term deal too. Picks are not worth top 5 guys on long term deals because there is nowhere near any guarantee whatsoever you can find a guy like Davis in the draft. Davis is a franchise players. Picks are the opposite of sure things. Do you think there are guys the caliber of Davis in every draft? If so you would be wrong. Why would New Orleans trade a true franchise player who they have… Read more »
Top 7-8, but yeah.
I have him 7th, but it’s with elite company:
LeBron
Kawhi
Durant
Harden
Curry
Westbrook
Davis
I have AD > Harden.
Right. AD is probably in [four : eight] range, after
LeBron,
Kawhi,
Durant.
You could argue about how he compares with
Harden,
Curry,
Westbrook,
Giannis.
I think AD is clearly better than
CP3,
PG13,
Griffin,
Butler.
If the Boogie thing doesn’t work out. NO has to think about blowing it up. Davis is their big chip. He never has led a team to the POs save for one year as a #8. While I think most value him highly, I’d reserve the top 10 for proven guys: James, Durant, Kawhi, Curry, Russ, Harden, CP3, PG13, Giannis, Griffin, & Butler are all ahead of Davis on that metric. Heck, even Gasol/Conley.
I agree about the blowing it up statement. There are a group of teams who are specifically building for Post Cavs/Warriors. Among them are Philly and the LAL (though they seem to always think they will sign LeBron). If I was NO, I’d be angling to compete with that group. The return they could get by moving AD and Holiday would set them up perfectly for that window of competition. I think you have to at least consider it if you’re NO. I mean no one in OKC ever thought KD was going to leave, they never did anything of… Read more »
That is a good point, but KI is not someone they would want to build a team for the post LeBron/Dubs era.
I’m assuming we use multiple picks as the basis to get Davis, including the BKN and maybe the Lakers pick if we got them from Boston. Two number ones that could be lottery picks are big assets.
You would take Griffin before Davis???
Davis definitely above Griffin IMO.
You can throw out all the guys that were in the east on that list. If Davis was in the east, he would be in the playoffs every year. CP3 has always had other all stars that have complemented his game. Boogie hampers Davis.
In no current interpretation of this wild world does it make sense for NO to dish Davis. Have you ever seen the dude play? Top 5-6 player in this league.
That’s what I said.
Never mind, thought you were replying to me.
And we agree! This commenting format can get a bit unwieldy.
OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO SAY THAT —THEY ARE FRIGGIN BOSTON FANS —-IF THE TABLE WERE TURNED THEY WOULD BE SREAMIN FOR MORE ADDED TO THE TRADE—-SCREW THEM—HOPE THE TRADE DOESN’T GO THRU——MAKE THE TRADE WITH THE BUCKS—-GOOD LUCK WITH AN INJURED I.T.
The thing they don’t seem to understand is that even without Kyrie and NOTHING in return, we are returning to the finals this year. If they don’t have a serviceable PG and Crowder is disgruntled, they may not make it out of the first round…
or even make the playoffs
I didn’t want to jump that far, but ya, that’s what I was thinking.
I read thru 4 or 5 pages of Boston Blog conversations. It actually seems like most of them think Ainge DOES have the leverage and had it all along and that if we walk away, we’re screwed… They simultaneously say things like “we will get our very usable and valuable assets back and the Cavs will get no usable assets back” while ignoring that the Cavs still get Kyrie Freaking Irving back who is one big trade chip… Just because we might not get quite as good a deal as initially intended doesn’t mean we won’t still be able to… Read more »
They’re going to be whining like crazy if the Cavs walk away.
They’ll absolutely LOVE not having a serviceable PG all season… We’ll see how well Hayward and Horford play when there isn’t a soul to get them the ball.
HAYNES WAS AN A….HOLE WHEN HE COVERED THE CAVS—-HAS GOTTEN WORSE SINCE LEAVING
Well Crowder is already wearing Cavs gear:
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/08/while_cavaliers_deliberate_on.html
Wish Gilbert would just go away
Would love to see Bron buy the team.
Bron is cheap
1:43
LOL… heard a story from a bartender at a pub near the Q who said the same thing.
Haynes: Not surprised if this was Cavaliers plan all along
http://www.csnne.com/video/chris-haynes-wouldnt-be-surprised-if-was-cavaliers-plan-all-along
I wouldn’t be surprised if Haynes is a total douche.
He’s a huge douche. He was on some NBA pod (probably Truehoops, can’t remember) after he left the Cavs beat saying basically ‘I served my penance in Cleveland’. Yeah, sorry for your tough life, bruh. GFY.
I CAN SEE GILBERT SELLING THE CAVS ——-LEBRON PLAYER / G.M /. OWNER —-HELL YES !!!
Next step is threatening to move the team:
I would guess LeBron gets buffet to buy him out… Can LeBron save the Cavs one more time!
Maybe they can build the new arena next to phase 2 of the casino that Gilbert wa required to build by law and definitely built! /s
Well they have 10 years until the lease expires:
http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2017/08/cavs_owner_dan_gilbert_kills_deal_to_renovate_quicken_loans_arena.html
This is great news. Kudos to the people who fought against this. Love the cavs, but ffs pay for your own arena. The Q is just fine as is
No taxpayer money for arenas. Billionaire owners & the league can pay for them or f off. I can go watch soccer just as happily.
Guess what? Every other city has those kind of deals. This might be the end of the Cavs. This is why the Supersonics left Seattle. Now they are sorry, and would love a chance to build a state of the art arena to steal the Cavs.
So be it. If every other city wants to jump off a bridge I dont feel the need to follow!
Basically EVERY pro team gets sweetheart deals on stadiums, arenas, etc. Similarly for major colleges. So if you want to give up on all major sports, fine. Otherwise, you make no sense.
Until people look at the economics, that is what people will continue to think.
I don’t really agree with one particular side but just curious, will you be as adamant if DG pulls the Cavs out of CLE?
Billionaire owners love those cities. I’d love it if other people funded my new half a billion dollar building for my business.
I grew up a Bengals fan, although I wasn’t from Cincinnati. When Mikey boy Brown was holding up the Hamilton county taxpayers for a new stadium, I thought they should have told him to go screw himself. Instead, they’ll be paying for that for the rest of their lives. But the Brown family is secure, right?
I think most of us don’t like helping out rich people. But a lot of us like pro sports, and that is the deal you get. The argument can be made that a pro team brings plenty of money to the city. Maybe/maybe not. At any rate, if the anti Gilbert crowd drive the Cavs from Cleveland, I guess they will say “We sure showed Gilbert who is boss”. Ohio Cavs fans will not be quite as happy.
Shrug. I would have been delighted if Mikey Brown hadn’t got his free 500 mill and moved his team. Some other city he can threaten down the line.
No, the argument cannot be made that taxpayer funded stadiums will be worth it for the city. All evidence suggests these deals are good deals for the owners, not the cities.
He could always sell the team.
I have to agree. Though I could see Gilbert moving the team after 10 years if he doesn’t get his way.
There should be a constitutional amendment against public financing for professional sports stadiums.
There is a,debate over how much of the renovation should be public money, but the Q is not good as constructed for the next 20 years. Richfield Colliseum became outdated, and that same fate will face the Q.
AGREE CAVS HAVE TO LOOK ELSEWHERE ( OR AT LEAST APPEAR THAT WAY ) TO FORCE AINGE OR BE READY TO LOOK ELSEWHERE ——-CANNOT ACCEPT TRADE THE WAY IT IS AT PRESENT ——YOU MIGHT NEVER SEE I.T. SUIT UP IN A CAVS UNIFORM —–WHO MAKES OUT LIKE A BANDIT IN THAT DEAL —-AINGE IS WELL AWARE THAT HE DOES —HOPE ALTMAN IS SMART ENOUGH TO REALIZE THIS ALSO ——-LOOKS LIKE TRIBE IS GOING TO “WASTE ” AWAY ANOTHER SOLID KLUBER PERFORMANVE —OUCH !!
What? Are you tripping?
I like the report that we haven’t asked Boston for additional assets yet. Make Ainge squirm while we shop Kyrie around to other teams that know we are 100% inclined to move Kyrie right now. If we aren’t talking to Boston, it looks like we found something in IT’s hip that is much worse and what Boston is offering doesn’t come remotely close to landing Kyrie.
Make him sweat! IT+Crowder+Tatum. Get it done!
DO WE ASK THE CELTS TO TAKE I.T. BACK AND REPLACE HIM WITH EITHER SMART AND # 1 PICK OR ROZIER AND # 1 PICK
Well unless they can get Brown (not likely but maybe possible) or Tatum (pipe dream) that may be what the cavs end up trying to get. With Ainge I have my doubts because he is one obstinate guy when it comes to trades.
Also I doubt Boston would do a deal now without including IT. Bridges may have been scorched already.
We better walk then. If we aren’t getting something to entirely replace IT, then Ainge can shove it up his azz. Crowder and the Brooklyn pick for Kyrie is garbage. We become a worse team for next year. This is arguably our last shot to win a title for a long time.
I don’t disagree. Just pointing out Ainge’s track record.
I disagree! Crowder and the Brooklyn pick are great. They are just not enough for Kyrie.
Raoul – what does that even mean in response to my post? Crowder and the Brooklyn pick are great! Just not enough for Kyrie!
Ok. Considering all of this dialogue is centered around trading Kyrie, what are you trying to say?
No thanks on Smart. We have the Brooklyn pick. I have no interest in other future protected picks. I want players. Give us Brown or Tatum. If IT isn’t a piece, then we should walk away. Boston has WAY MORE to lose than we do. We can trade Kyrie to another team. Boston will be stuck with an injured IT, a p*ssed off Crowder, and a fan base that was sold on KI and whose GM acted as though IT was going to be fine. We have all of the leverage. If I’m KA, I tell Ainge that the only… Read more »
You take the best deal, does not matter if it is picks or players. THE BEST DEAL!!! What is so hard about understanding that? You are as bad as JoeyB.
Please tell me how Boston’s deal is the best deal if IT is ruined (aka not a piece in the trade)? What don’t you understand about Crowder + Brooklyn pick = not a good trade for Kyrie?
Are you saying if IT won’t play until march or April or has to have surgery and can’t play at all, this is the best deal? That deal is Crowder and Brooklyn pick for Kyrie. A deal you just said was not good. Seriously, what are you even trying to say?
The bucks deal is better than that in a LBJ free agency year.
JRL I JUST READ (THANKS ) SOME POSTS FROM THE CELTICS BLOG—-THE PERCENTAGE SEEMED HYPED THAT THE CELTS WERE GETTTING KYRIE—-SO AGAIN—CAVS WE HAVE THE LEVERAGE—-MAKE AINGE GIVE US WHAT WE DESERVE / WANT—-OR MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE A FOOL TO HIS FAN BASE/ HAVE THEM TURN ON HIM—-HE KNOWS THIS ALSO—-HE ISN’T THAT NAIVE THAT HE DOESN’T THE PULSE OF THE CITY AND WHAT THEY WANT ( AND WHAT THEY DON’T WANT )
AGREED JRL ON HOW MUCH THEY HYPED UP KYRIE / EXCITED /SOLD THERE FANS ON THE TRADE —-HE BACKS OUT NOW– THEN EVERYONE WILL KNOW ( MORE SO NOW ) WHAT A– B.S. —-“BLOW SMOKE UP YOUR BUTT ” TYPE A PERSON HE REALLY IS ——-IT ALSO MAY HINDER HIS CHANCES OF MAKING BIG TRADES IN THE FUTURE —-SO DANNY BOY YOU MIGHT AS WELL GIVE IN —YOU HAVE ALOT ON THE LINE —–DON’T LET YOUR STUPID EGO STAND IN THE WAY OF DOING THE RIGHT THING
Boston fans know that Ainge doesn’t have the leverage on this situation…
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=93244.0
I read thru 4 or 5 pages of their conversations. It actually seems like most of them think Ainge DOES have the leverage and had it all along and that if we walk away, we’re screwed… They simultaneously say things like “we will get our very usable and valuable assets back and the Cavs will get no usable assets back” while ignoring that the Cavs still get Kyrie Freaking Irving back who is one big trade chip… Just because we might not get quite as good a deal as initially intended doesn’t mean we won’t still be able to get… Read more »
BEEN OUT OF THE LOOP/ BEEN ENJOYING MY NEW ” PRINCESS—GRANDAUGHTER “—-HAVE NOW RETURNED AND PUT ON MY “CTB G.M. ” HAT —-IF THE CAVS FRONT OFFICE DON’-T ” GROW A PAIR “- AND DEMAND ( NOT REQUEST ) MORE FROM AINGE ( TELL HIM TO GO POUND SAND ) THEN I AM IN DEEP CONCERN WHERE THIS FRANCHISE IS HEADED ——-ALTMAN THIS IS YOUR MOMENT TO BE A HERO OR FOREVER BE KNOWN AS THE ” 2ND COMING OF CHRIS GRANT “——
Congrats on the granddaughter :)
Altman and Uncle Dan need to squeeze Ainge for everything they can. At the end of the day Boston has less leverage on this whole ordeal. They need Kyrie now that they have sold him as the second coming of Christ.
I agree. They may be contacting other teams between now and Thursday though so they can come to Ainge with even more leverage in the form of previous offers or updated offers from other teams.
Four way trade discussion: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/three-questions-and-a-prediction-as-the-kyrie-irving-isaiah-trade-is-in-limbo/
Just saw that and thought WTF?
Here is the FTS take: https://www.fearthesword.com/2017/8/28/16215238/cavaliers-celtics-not-asked-for-additional-assets
It seems that, unfortunately, the Cavs FO values the pick more than anything. Which means they might just cave and do the trade with an extra second or something. What’s most confusing to me is what the FO is actually trying to do. Are they trying to win a chip this year? Convince Lebron to stay? Prepare for his inevitable exist and get picks? It seems like they’re thinking they can do all of them at once and I don’t think that’s possible. I always got the sense with Griff that he knew exactly what he was trying to do,… Read more »
They are certainly trying to do all of those things. That is why this trade works for us. You get an all-star PG on an expiring. Excellent 3D guy locked in at low cost. They help you this year. Plus Zizic as a prospect. Plus the Nets pick which can be used for win now mode or reload later. Either of which could appeal to LeBron. If IT is out, it falls apart.
Griffin’s objective was a lot more concrete: do whatever it takes to win a championship. While retaining LeBron and building for future success were secondary goals, they were not on the forefront as doing whatever it takes to maximize the 3-5 year peak in LeBron’s prime. Altman’s situation is more complex. LeBron’s free agency is impending (while you could argue, he’s been a free agent every year, it was clear that LeBron had no intention of leaving with an easy path to the Finals every year). Kyrie privately demanded a trade, whereas Griffin just had to keep him at bay.… Read more »
Ooof. That really makes me want to either get something big or pull out of the trade.
Spot on post from Nate. The upshot is we may never know the full story.
We’ll have to wait for Bill Simmons to give us ‘The Real Story’…/s
Gag.
People are missing something big here. First, isaiah should have had surgery in June. I believe he didn’t because he wanted to get “good enough” to play next year to get a big contract. Celtics knew that and played along or had no choice but to play along and chosele to move IT. But Cleveland doctors (among the best in the country) found stuff that was far worse than they were led to believe. Who knows how bad isaiah’s hip is? No one can say due to HIPAA (no pun intended) laws. But it might be worse than a hip… Read more »
Yeah, this is probably pretty much what happened. Thomas didn’t want the surgery if he could get by without it, and sounds like Cavs doctors think he requires the surgery. If he gets the surgery my guess is he doesn’t play this year, and Thomas doesn’t get his Brinks truck contract. (if he was ever going to get that when healthy)
Good analysis, Nate. This is indeed very sensitive legally, and IT would indeed file a suit if he thought his ability to earn was compromised. Hard to believe the Celtics – with their access to some of the best medical facilities in the northeast – didn’t know IT’s hip was worse than requiring rest and only a small delay to be ready for the season. If the Celtics don’t offer another first rounder, I would take that Bucks’ trade instead at this point.
I like Middleton. I’m okay with that trade. We’ll see I guess. I just want to know who will be on our team next season.
I really like Middleton and Brogdon. I think that would be a solid but not amazing deal for the Cavs.
It is also hard to believe that the Celts didn’t provide all their medical info to the Cavs. That is standard practice with NBA trades.
It sounds like the info Boston got wasn’t good…. AKA Doctors either weren’t thorough, were wrong, or just had a difference of opinion. Obviously the Cavs are going to trust Cleveland Clinic above all else.
Boston also could have kept themselves willfully ignorant. Or IT wasn’t fully forthcoming, or maybe IT wanted to fail the physical. There’s a million things that could’ve happened.
Perhaps. How common is it that teams are willfully ignorant about players’ known injuries, particularly when it might cost them millions?
Don’t think they were intending to keep IT after this season. Acknowledging his health risks actually make him less marketable to other teams and harder to trade. If they were planning on letting him walk at the end of the season without offering a contract, they would want to keep his trade value as high as possible just in case they can move him before the deadline.
But then doesn’t this scenario inevitably happen? Being willfully ignorant doesn’t prevent other teams from doing their physicals. I guess I’m not sure what the benefit of willful ignorance would be if this is the inevitable result.
Well, I guess theoretically, they could have hoped that the doctors from the team they were trading with (CLE) didn’t find anything else. I don’t know, though, I am certainly not an authority on the situation.
I’m going with willful ignorance. The stories about the trade, even from the Boston side, are all vague about when the Celtics examined Thomas most recently.
Exactly. The fact that the Celts had zero contact with IT since the end of the season is the key piece of evidence. The only reason to do that is if you are trying to trade him to a sucker, and later say “No Kidding? He’s not 100%?”.
Lol… this can’t be serious…
Lue was spotted at the BIG3 championship game, and while he got to witness some fun basketball, he was also there to do some scouting. Namely, he was there to scout Trilogy guard Rashad McCants, according to the BIG3.
Oh this would be great for the Cavs:
Rashad McCants: I wouldn’t have washed out of the NBA if I didn’t date Khloe Kardashian
Kardashian voodoo kept him from ever developing a reliable jumper.
It’s no longer flip the switch, it’s flip the pick (or bird, depending how upset you are?).
IMO Danny (not the Comic Sans one) will cave and give up a first, then the Cavs will flip the pick to Phoenix for Bledsoe. IT can rehab until Feb/March, then come off the bench, when Rose goes on the DL.
This plan sounds wonderful.
I feel like we should fleece Boston at this point. Sorry, but if IT is going to miss significant time, he can’t be the main “win now” piece in the deal. If they still want us to take him, they need to a lot more. Maybe take on Shump’s contract and send us a couple additional picks that we could then flip to another team for a good PG. I don’t want a version of IT that MIGHT be healthy in time to help late in the season. That isn’t good enough. Boston is still a bad spot now. IT’s… Read more »
Seems like its just a stand-off now. Cavs want more, Boston isn’t offering more than a 2nd round pick. I think Ainge is trying to play hardball. I want Crowder and that Pick but I’m not interested in taking IT for nothing…
Agreed. Boston needs this trade to happen far more than we do. They can’t afford to have it fall through having burned bridges with IT and Crowder. And now it’s clear that IT is super injured, so they will get nothing for him elsewhere.
We have all of the leverage here and I hope we strong arm Ainge into giving us what we want. Either throw in the Memphis pick + the Philly/Sacto top-1 protected pick, or give us Brown/Tatum.
It’s also VERY clear that IT isn’t just hurt physically… He was absolutely blindsided by that trade. This is a very dangerous situation for IT right now as he might never recover or get another contract again… I assume he was under the assumption that the Celtics wanted to offer him a deal to keep him in Boston. Clearly that isn’t the case.
My guess is that if the Cavs want that much then Ainge just walks away. I imagine the Celts would prefer to just keep IT and and what might be a top 3 pick next year then give up Brown/Tatum, IT, and a top 3 pick for Kyrie. I think we are overestimating how much leverage we have over the Celts.
The Cavs should be operating under the assumption that Danny is walking away, and Cleveland should be actively negotiating with other teams.
Agree, I think the Cavs are likely talking with the Bucks and others right now. My guess is that the Cavs pull the trigger with a different team within a week.
Vardon just reported that the Cavs are rumored to not have asked the Celtics for more assets as of now. Looks like they are, indeed, negotiating with other teams. I assume they want to go to Boston and say, “Listen, we have another offer we are willing to take. Give us what we want or we walk and take that offer.” Then its up to Ainge to determine if the Cavs are bluffing (they likely won’t be), or if its worth it to complete the trade.
Yep. Ainge probably never wants to be seen as losing a trade in his entire career. So he may just take the bitter pill of taking back a guy who might not play this year and who might not want to play for Boston again. That doesn’t even mention Crowder. I think Ainge could be stubborn enough to ruin his chances of getting a superstar back for IT.
Clock continues to tick with no solution yet. Feel like I’m waiting by the phone.
My thing is, if IT is really out most of season, take him OUT of the deal and use that to pry more from Celts. Then flip the additional Celts assets and Shump for a Beverly or a Bledsoe. And you keep Crowder and Brooklyn pick.
I though about that too but I don’t know if they can take IT out now. That bridge might have already been burned. Which is why the cavs should tell Ainge to give them a Brown, Tatum, or if they have another non or minimally protected pick from a lottery team. If not they should say thanks but no thanks. Enjoy not having Thomas for 4 months and then having a pissed of IT after that. Also enjoy patching things up with Crowder. See ya in the playoffs. Seriously, this trade could destroy Boston’s team chemistry if it is voided.… Read more »
They are not going to take IT back and have two point guards. IT is a flyer for the Cavs, he might be valuable at the end of the season. Or, maybe not.
IT could also be the salary dump to a third team that flips Cleveland a point guard and then they just waive him.
The Indians have inched ahead of the Red Sox.
The Cavs have the stronger hand in the threat of pulling the trade and looking elsewhere, EXCEPT: KI dropped a $7M trade kicker when he agreed to be traded to Boston. He might not do that for other teams, or just choose to screw things up just to p!ssoff LeBron.
If it is between that and sitting out and not collecting a paycheck for months, I am guessing he will give in.
The point is that if we trade him elsewhere, and he does not drop the $7M kicker, he is worth $7M LESS to the team getting him, and they will offer $7M less players for him.