Five on Five: Kyrie Conundrum

Kyrie Irving asked the Cavs to trade him in a meeting last week, sources told ESPN. Story posting on https://t.co/b8H6X39PKb shortly

— Brian Windhorst (@WindhorstESPN) July 21, 2017

The news that Kyrie wanted out dropped Friday with this Windy-bomb.  The above tweet led to a crazy weekend in the never ending soap opera that is the NBA offseason. We CtB staffers did our best to figure out what what it all meant for our feelings about Kyrie Irving and the team, what the future holds for both, and what we think Kyrie and the Cavs should do going forward.

What was your gut reaction when you first heard the news about Kyrie wanting out? How do you feel now that you’ve had a day to process it?

Cory: I had just finished making a pot of lobster bisque, and had slammed half a dozen scratch margaritas. I headed up to my room for a siesta to sleep off the buzz and exhaustion when I got the Twitter notification shown above. Initially I was disheartened by the news. I’ve maintained a positive outlook towards the offseason, and it was a slap to the face that I’ve been denying how bad things really are.

A half hour later I was already slinging deals on the trade machine. The Decision changed me in a way. I no longer feel the attachment to players like I used to. I nearly bought a Kyrie wine throwback on Cavsteamshop.com (they are 30% off to make way for the new uniforms btw) a few days ago, but they fortunately didn’t have my size. I love watching his offensive witchcraft, but he’s such a negative player on the defensive end, and his history with injuries makes me think that this might be an ideal time of the Cavs to see what they can get for him.

Mike Schreiner: My gut reaction was a combination of disbelief and feeling a sort of mental punch to the gut, followed by the thought that this team can’t go a day without any drama. Now that I’ve had some time to process it, the end of this era of the Cleveland Cavaliers doesn’t seem quite as imminent. Irving has two more years plus a player option left on his deal, and without a no-trade clause, the Cavaliers hold all the cards. They could try to work things out, but more likely, they should be able to leverage this for the kind of return that can both improve their depth, and help them compete better defensively against the other elite teams in the league. They’ll likely miss Irving’s ability to score in high pressure playoff situations, but smart people around the league will tell you that he isn’t the impact player many make him out to be.

David Wood: I was driving when I got a text from a fellow Cleveland man also living down South. It simply said, “WTF Kyrie.” I didn’t think it was something about him wanting out though. I figured he broke his hand trying to Shammgod over the continent of Asia or Shammgoding (Shamgodding?) a large number people at one of his events. Naturally, I demanded SIRI search Kyrie and found out about his desire to leave.  Right away, I was like, “Damn, Cleveland’s a joke again.”

Another friend texted during that thought saying, “Bye, Bye, Kyrie.” That only added to my “why is this happening to the Cavs?” thoughts. After about ten minutes though, I got kind of excited. Trading Kyrie is a way to build a bench that’s under 36, toss Shump out the door, and get multiple guys that can actually contribute on both ends of the floor. And, now, I just think Kyrie is delusional. He wants to do it on his on own… There’s no pride in that, just stupidity. There’s a reason that two teams with multiple All-Star talents have been in the Finals for three straight years.

Nate Smith: “SERIOUSLY!?” That was my gut reaction. The more I read, the more baffled I was by the whole thing. I questioned the story, for sure, but the longer we went without a denial, and the more stories that came out, it was like a dam broke. I got the feeling that those close to the Cavs had been holding this in for a long time. As I got more and more into the motivations for Kyrie wanting to leave, my reaction was, “what a weiner.” I just don’t get wanting to leave an almost guaranteed shot at the Finals for being “the focal point.” I plan on writing more about this, but it seemed very self absorbed, childish, and – combined with all his other weirdness – daffy.

Now? I’ve already written him off, at least for this team. With me you’re either in or out. Now I’m calling the dude Fredo Irving. While Kyrie did hit the biggest shot in franchise history, all the old tropes come back to me: no defense, selfish ballhandler, mails in the regular season, doesn’t make his teammates better, injury prone…

The last thing I want Kyrie to do is go fishing with Al Neri though, cause the other side of me is excited! This team seemed so set before. We were resigned to the same guys who’d we’d watched trudge up the mountain last year. Now I get to play with the trade machine and envision the Cavs getting deeper, younger, and more cohesive. It’s certainly given us something to ponder.

Samuel Meyer: I told a friend a few weeks ago, when the news broke about David Griffin not returning, that the Cavs were beginning to have the feeling of that ‘beginning of the end’ portion that wraps up any sport documentary. This “What Next!?” moment only added to that sentiment. Kyrie has held a special place in my Cavs fandom. I didn’t really turn into an avid Cavs fan until after The Decision (surprisingly) and my first year of college was Kyrie’s rookie year. I watched nearly every game, mostly to watch Kyrie, who was the most exciting, fun-to-watch rookie I had seen since I began following the NBA, which, admittedly, wasn’t that long, but long enough to remember Griffin and Durant and LeBron.

He really did embody hope for future success during those dark years. Despite all the warranted conversation about his true value in the subsequent years, I have been bullish on Kyrie as the perfect fit at PG for LeBron. The national media has seemed shocked that a star player would not want to play with LeBron, but really everyone should be more shocked when a star does want to play with Lebron. As much as he gets the best out of role players, he absolutely marginalizes greater talents. All that to say, after processing it for a day, I am not shocked that Kyrie wants to go somewhere new, and I’m pretty pessimistic on the chances of the Cavs winning in a trade that involves him at this point in the offseason.

If Kyrie is traded, does he have the ability to drag any team to the playoffs, or is his new team destined to watch a redux of the non-LeBron Cavs?

Cory: Hmm…That all depends on where he’s headed. If we’re going by his preferred destinations he certainly wouldn’t be dragging the Spurs or Timberwolves to the playoffs. Both should be top four seeds in the West regardless of Uncle Drew’s presence. Miami should figure to be a playoff team in the micromodal soft Leastern conference. The Knicks on the other hand are coming off of a 31-51 season. Assuming they’d give up Carmelo Anthony in an Irving deal at the minimum I’m not sure if it’s a lock that Porzingis, Tim Hardaway Jr., and Irving will get them to the postseason. On paper they should, but Zinger and Irving would both have to take major steps forward.

Before LeBron returned in 2014, the Irving led Cavs were over .500 for a day. The Cavs were 3-13 when LeBron sat last season. Wherever Kyrie goes, he’d have to buy into being a complete player to lead a team to the second round if he is the main attraction.

Mike: Not any team, but maybe to a team in the Eastern Conference. We’ve seen over and over that Kyrie’s amazing scoring skills are often negated by his terrible defense, at least in the regular season. Basically, he’s a break even proposition at best during the regular season. The Cavaliers’ record when he plays while LeBron James sits would indicate that he’s not even that good, but this team is so specifically built around LeBron that it’s not entirely fair to put that on Irving. On the other hand, his tendency to become even more of an isolation scorer when James isn’t in the game doesn’t help those situations either.

Still, if Irving had a team built specifically to play with him and was surrounded by the right combination of role players who brought enough secondary offense while masking his defensive deficiencies, then he may be able to get them to one of the bottom spots in the East, but that’s just as much about the flaws of the Leastern Conference as it would be about Irving and the team he would play with. Being a playoff team in the East doesn’t mean your team is any good. Think the Portland Trailblazers with Damian Lillard—who is a very similar player to Irving—but without C.J. McCollum.

David: Kyrie is from another era, and that is not just because he thinks the earth is flat and wants to start a commune. He’s of the era where getting buckets was all that mattered. Getting buckets in any way: mid-range jumpers, crazy layups, and off the dribble 3s. He is of the Kobe era. Teams need guys that can score, but if that’s all you have in your tool box as a player, it’s hard to for a team to succeed long term. If Kyrie lands on a team without any stars or the exact perfect set of role players, he’s facing the Russell Westbrook conundrum. Entire defenses will focus in on him. He will not have as good a season as he did this past year on any other team in the NBA. 

And, let’s face the facts. He’s not a winner. He has struggled when James hasn’t been on the floor and he just can’t win when he isn’t in the lineup. In Irving’s three James-less seasons the Cavs won just 77 games/the least in the league. If James hadn’t come to the Cavs, the world could be looking at Irving quite differently, almost how they view DeMarcus Cousins. Yea, he’s great, but how much winning is in his blood. James might have had enough influence on Irving to show him that winning ball isn’t getting your own in any sense of the word, but I’m not betting on that. Irving can get some teams in the East to the playoffs, but that’s about it.

Nate: Physically, and basketball-wise he has the tools. Tom Pestak often said that as Kyrie grows the Cavs have the ability to improve. Unfortunately, this whole situation is evidence to me that he won’t mature. I doubt he grows any more as a player. He doesn’t seem selfless or realistic enough. As he is now though, he has the ability to drag the right team to the playoffs. He could drag a bottom five eastern conference team, because the eastern conference’s lower end is pretty bad. I fear though that most teams will have to give up so much to get him that they’ll deplete their roster enough to just be a borderline playoff team. He also needs to be paired with elite defensive guards and wings to mask his defensive lapses and a pick and roll partner that can finish well. Send him out West with the wrong team, and he’s probably an also-ran. He’d probably do well in Minny, but to me, that’s Butler’s team, not Kyrie’s.

Samuel: Does regular-season-Kyrie (RS-Kyrie) have that ability? No, probably not. I’m hesitant to put too much stock into advanced metrics, but most of them have been pretty damning in regards to his true impact during the regular season. Now could postseason-Kyrie (PS-Kyrie) turn a non-playoff team into a contender? That is an interesting question. His ability to turn it up during the playoffs has been backed by many of those same advanced metrics that devalue him during the regular season. That’s before discussing his late game heroics and 1-on-1 mastery that makes him so obviously valuable in postseason play.

So if RS-Kyrie can figure out how to play a full regular season much closer to the level of PS-Kyrie, then you are looking at a guy who is a franchise corner stone. Health is always an issue with Kyrie, and playing at the intensity of PS-Kyrie for an entire regular season would leave him much more vulnerable to more injuries. So does he have the ability? Yes. Is it likely? Right now, I lean towards saying “no, it’s not too likely.”

What is the ideal spot for Irving to land if he is going to be successful? Does that spot have something the Cavs could get back of value?

Cory: By his destination listing, I’m going with Miami as the ideal location for Irving to go to with the Cavs getting back a quality return. Miami was in playoff contention until the final game of the regular season last year. Irving would give them their first marketable star in his prime since LeBron left three seasons ago. Irving would get top shelf coaching from Erik Spoelstra, a quality surrounding cast in Hassan Whiteside, Tyler Johnson, and his former frienemy Dion Waiters.

What would it cost Miami? I would never trade with Riley unless I got back a quality return that helps the Cavs remain in contention and also sets them up for future seasons in the event that this is the final season of the LeBron era remix. Goran Dragic would be an ideal replacement for Irving in the backcourt. He drilled an impressive 40% of his triples last season, and has a reasonable contract for the next two seasons (two-years, $35 million). I would also want former Herculoid Wayne Ellington back for his own second tour of Cleveland. Ellington has shot a respectable 37% from downtown of his career. The last player parcel I would insist on is Justice Winslow. The Heat struck lottery luck with him dropping to 10th in the draft two years ago, and he’s an ideal addition for his defensive versatility, and the fact that he could be under the Cavs control for the next three seasons on his rookie deal and restricted free agency. I’d probably try to pry a future pick swap at the very least also.

Mike: How are we defining success here? If it’s simply being more of an offensive focal point, then there are plenty of teams that could work, such as the New York Knicks, Orlando Magic, Brooklyn Nets, Miami Heat, Phoenix Suns, Indiana Pacers, Dallas Mavericks, and the list goes on and on, but some of those teams wouldn’t ever sniff the playoffs. If we’re talking about being the first option on offense for a potential playoff team, the Heat, Utah Jazz, and possibly the Denver Nuggets fit the bill (in the sense that Irving would likely bring the ball up and have it more than Nikola Jokic, which could be a disaster for the Nuggets). The Milwaukee Bucks might also fit the bill as Irving is a more polished scorer than Giannis Antetokounmpo. If being the primary option on offense is important to him then the Minnesota Timberwolves and San Antonio Spurs don’t really make sense at all, despite being on Irving’s list of preferred teams according to ESPN’s Chris Haynes.

What is the main factor in Kyrie asking for a trade? Does he want to be the man somewhere else or is there more to the situation?

Cory: After my siesta was interrupted with the Irving news I had a brief experience of deja vu. Like most cases of deja vu it took a moment to put the connection together in my head. After a few minutes of internet digging, I finally had my Charlie Brown “That’s it!” moment on this very blog of all places. In April of 2014, the Cavs were in a very different place, and CtB alum Robert Attenweiler sat down for an interview with ESPN’s Brian Windhorst. The passage that haunted me was the following from Windhorst:

And the other thing is this: if the Cavs ever dream of having LeBron, it’s not going to be with Kyrie there. LeBron and Kyrie have drifted apart in the last few years, even to the point that if the Cavs wanted to get LeBron they would maybe trade Kyrie for someone who would fit better with LeBron. And I’m not making that up. That line of thinking was not originated by me. That’s just the truth.

In the initial Windhorst column on Irving’s trade demand no Cavs player other than LeBron James was mentioned. I’ll go with him being the primary reason Irving wants out. We’ve witnessed LeBron’s “seasonal affective disorder” sprout up the past three seasons. Can you imagine what he’s like behind closed doors? The wanting to be the main guy thing, along with wanting to go to San Antonio and Minnesota doesn’t add up. I think that he’s sick of LeBron dictating everything to him.

Mike: I’m going to take this one at face value. I truly think that Irving want’s to be the face of a team somewhere. The idea that he’s leaving to beat LeBron out the door or because of the dysfunctional front office would make sense, but if it were true, why wouldn’t one of those have been leaked as the reasons? In either case, Irving deflects some of the criticism coming from the fans and media onto the Cavs organization or LeBron himself. With the reported reasons, he takes all of the criticism. I don’t think Irving is the kind of person to do that just to be a nice guy. Now, if you want to make the argument that David Griffin could have talked Irving out of this if he had been retained as General Manager, that may be a valid point. Still, it seems that Irving’s motivations have little to do with the Cavaliers as an organization outside of their commitment to making James happy and the potential that James could be here for years to come.

David: I actually think Kyrie just wants to be the man. He’s gotta get buckets and any buckets being got by other guys is unacceptable. Seriously though, here’s the thing to remember about Kyrie. He is still young. He doesn’t know how nice it is to have sustained success without really needing to work for it. He’s still at the point in his life where he thinks things can always be better and that he can be the maker of those other things. He’s also a Kobe-Lover. Those people are irrational, so that helps explain why he’s trying to leave a guaranteed trip to the Finals.

Nate: Who knows. I’ve heard his Dad isn’t enamored of the Cavs and thinks Irving should be the “number one option,” according to Sam Amico. I’ve heard Kyrie’s annoyed about how the Cavs bend over backwards for LeBron and how half the King’s friends are on the Cleveland payroll (Ramona Shelburne, ESPN). And yeah, Uncle Drew’s got some Kobe in him and wants to be “the man” somewhere. He’s also a stereotypical self entitled passive aggressive millennial with a helicopter parent who needs constant soothing and reassurance and doesn’t have the guts to be an adult and just confront LeBron and @CavsDan on what’s bothering him and straighten it out. Now that the talent whisperer, David Griffin is gone, Kyrie’d rather just run away and live in his completely unserious flat earth and self sustaining farm fantasies while meticulously shepherding his brands and stroking his hipster beard.

Samuel:I’m sure there is more to this somewhere. Maybe Irving doesn’t trust Gilbert/the front office, maybe he doesn’t want to be around in case LeBron leaves next offseason or maybe he’s tired of living in Cleveland. Maybe he looks at Golden State and thinks there’s no way this iteration of the Cavs can seriously compete with them again. Those might all factor in to varying degrees or not at all. I don’t know. The man conjectures that the earth is flat, so attempting to accurately predict what’s going through his mind might is not a trivial task.

The main motivating factor, though, is wanting to be the man somewhere, and Kyrie doesn’t want to wait any longer. The man idolizes Kobe, who did the exact same thing with the Lakers and prime Shaq, and Windy even stated that he thought of asking for a trade last offseason. That doesn’t sound like a manifestation of any of the other factors being tossed around nationally right now. Windy has said before that Kyrie is stubborn, borderline combative, in terms of his confidence in his talents. So if I had to guess at one, that would be my guess. Though really it could just be me putting on rose colored glasses, given that this is the only option which doesn’t have serious negative implications for the Cavs.

If the Cavs do trade Kyrie. do you trust Koby Altman to get good value? Do you want to win now or build for the future?

Cory: David Griffin fans came out of the woodwork like boll weevils for a White Stripes encore. If you have that much belief in David Griffin, don’t you think he would have had a major hand in schooling Koby Altman for this very moment? I’m fine with Altman being the point man on this because he’s got all of the leverage in the situation, not Kyrie. If he gets blown away with an offer tomorrow he can accept it. If he doesn’t he can wait. Irving is a marketable All-Star under 25, and he has a drastically below market contract for the next two years. He should be able to get a great return that includes players for today, and assets for tomorrow.

Mike: I trust Koby Altman, who by all accounts is a bright mind who has the potential to be a good General Manager. They key will be letting the market play out a bit before the start of training camp, unless they are blown away early. That will require patience by Altman (and Dan Gilbert), but restraint should create the kind of bidding war that will benefit the Cavaliers. It’s also important that Cleveland try to include Iman Shumpert in any deal, as his production hasn’t been what they expected when he re-signed with the team, particularly in the playoffs.

David: I trust Kobe Altman solely because this is a situation that’s impossible to mess up. Kyrie wants out with two years on his contract. The Cavs will get something serious for him if they’re trading him, and the timeline makes it so they can wait and see what offers come in. Fortunately for the Cavs, by winning now, they are winning for the future. The Cavs need younger guys with high variance to go against the Warriors. The guys Cleveland had during the Finals just weren’t enough, even during the brief moments they were playing their best. LeBron will get the Cavs to the Finals again, so that’s not a worry. Why not let some young guys get run if they can handle it? You never know when young talent is going to have a night with 24 points, three steals, two blocks, and three assists. That can win you a game if it happens at the right time, and that’s about the only way the Cavs can compete against the Warriors right now.

Nate: I don’t know if I trust Koby Altman. To me he’s already got hitting on a 1-2 count this offseason with Calderon, Green, and Cedi Osman. With a ball and two strikes, he’s fouling off pitches as he entertainments the loathsome Derrick Rose. Again it is impossible to say how much of this is Altman and how much of this is Jerry Jones Gilbert. So, lemme phrase it as, “I’m very very wary,” especially considering how disastrous the other two big name trades (Jimmie Butler and Paul George) were for the trading team this offseason.

My goal is to win now and build for the future: dump Shump, grab a borderline star, a useful roleplayer, and a rookie or draft pick(s). Also, Cleveland has to avoid anyone who’s going to be a free agent next year, restricted or otherwise. (This means you, T.J. Warren). Here’s my ideal trade: Eric Bledsoe, Jared Dudley, and Josh Jackson for Kyrie, Shump, and Kay Felder. You could route that through Minnesota if you needed.

Samuel: I have no idea what to think of Altman. I honestly hadn’t heard of him before this summer, and based purely on what has transpired this summer, I can’t say I have too much hope in him making lemonades out of these lemons. The greedy, passionate Cavs fan in me really wants the Cavs to continue to look to win now; LeBron is getting older and I would hate to waste the last few prime years of one of the greatest basketball players of all time.

The intellectual, unemotional Cavs fan in me says that they can’t get players of equal skill now, so instead of putting together a cheap imitation in the present, let’s build for the future so when LeBron hangs up his Cavs jersey for the last time, be it next summer or 7 years from now, they will be in a much better position to effectively manage it. The correct answer probably lies somewhere in the middle, which is achievable.

I proposed above, Bledsoe, Chandler, Chriss and picks for Irving and Shumpert works out salary-wise, and would be probably the best way to stay competitive without mortgaging their future as well as being realistic. As for a dream trade? How about Kyrie, Shump and Felder to the Grizzlies for Mike Conley and Andrew Harrison? Who says no in that trade? Irving is younger and a potential building block for the Grizzlies going forward, and Conley is still a top tier point guard that will keep the Cavs competitive now. The Felder/Harrison addition is purely because I can’t stand Felder and Harrison actually impressed me in the playoffs last year. The Grizzlies don’t strike me as the type of franchise to engage in these rock-the-boat type of trades, but I gotta admit, if we’re gonna lose Kyrie, having Conley would be a pretty awesome replacement.