Podcast Episode 107: Championship Week
2016-06-28https://soundcloud.com/ctb-5/ep107
What a week! Ben Werth plays us in on this pod with his Jack Black-esque diddy about how he feels about a Cleveland Championship. Tom Pestak, Nate Smith, and Carson Zagger discuss game seven again, the series, LeBron’s legacy, Kyrie, Championship Week, and the transcendent moments we all shared over the last eight days.
As always we can be found on soundcloud, itunes, or above.
OKC is trying to clear space to sign Durant and Horford. I know our trade exception isn’t giant, but anyone we could grab from them?
I don’t want Kanter. His defense is absolutely atrocious. Rumor says they’re shopping Kyle Singler. He’s not great, but a career 37% 3pt shooter and plays SF. Is he good defensively?
No. Singler was one of the worst players in the NBA last year.
He’s no good defensively? I don’t put much stock into one season. If he could be had on the cheap, play decent defense, and hit open threes, I think he could be a good add at the back of the rotation. But, I also know very little about him. If he sucks, no thanks!
Search some of the thunder blogs on Singler. He’s unplayable. Just terrible. Rather have a d-leaguer.
Are you going to put up a free agent open thread?
Yes, there will be one up early evening…
Evidence for the “LeBron is made out of steel” take. Look at his ankle after this block in Game 6. Most guys would be out for 2 weeks after a twist that.
James is a freak of nature, but he also takes incredible care of his body. His committment to stay in such awesome shape is beyond commendable.
Great podcast fellas! Tom – I apologize I couldn’t get a hold of you last week to get together during the parade. I completely underestimated the number of Cleveland faithful jamming the cell phone airwaves. The parade was awesome. The general atmosphere was one of glory and joy – I didn’t hear any complaining during the day despite the heat and the dense crowd. In fact, the biggest conflict of the day that I witnessed came between two guys on the RTA train who nearly got into a fist fight over a “who-is better-kyrie-or-lebron” debate. For me, Game 7 was… Read more »
Pretty hilarious that it took about a week to start arguing about how and why we won the Championship. I guess the initial elation is wearing off and folks have the analysis hats back on. It’s ok, though. A championship run is the best thing to argue about, and I shudder to think what this week would be like if things had went a little bit differently.
Oh man, the trade Kyrie faction would’ve been enough for me to quit the blog.
It might still be worth it…
Cols’ complex relationship with this blog…
http://foodriotcom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/quityou.jpg
Wonder if Cols has watched Brokeback Mountain? Yeah, it’s complicated.
It’s pretty crazy. Elation hasn’t worn off here. Still crazy pumped about it. So nice to completely ignore the draft and free agency.
If they re-played this series 100 times, I think the Cavs win it 100 times. They have the Warriors figured out and the worst MVP choice since Derrick Rose can’t do anything about it.
The MVP is a regular season award. So now let’s hear why Curry wasn’t deserving of the regular season MVP.
Because LeBron just owned him.
In the Finals. Hence the Finals MVP.
Because he’s an incomplete player when stacked next to LeBron and Kahwai as his competition.
Never said he’s the better player than anyone. Just hard to see the argument against him winning the regular season MVP when he scores 30+ points, shatters 3-pt records and plays on a 73-win team. He earned the regular season award.
Nope. The playoffs showed just how hollow those numbers were.
Huh? Not sure what bearing the 2016 playoffs have on the 2016 regular season MVP award?
Cols, you’re clueless. Curry was absolutely deserving of the MVP. In no universe does a player’s poor Finals performance negate a regular season MVP award that he 100% earned. Get real man, you look foolish sometimes.
http://interblah.net/images/refinements/refinements.128.jpeg
The dumbest thing you have posted here this season, and, by god, that’s saying something…
Warriors are historically great. I said during the regular season that 73 wins was just as significant as a championship. That makes the Cavs’ victory all the more impressive. We can point to 100 different reasons the Cavs won. Destiny? Will? LeBron? Injuries? Collective positive mental energy? Luck? Defense? Cavs won is all that you can say. It makes me question the very nature of existence.
They cannot be historically great if they didn’t win the title. Sorry. Cavs were the better team this year (and probably last year too, but we didn’t get to find out).
1 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1. Oh, I’m sorry, I thought you would understand binary better since that’s all that seems to get through to you. The world is not black and white and the Warriors can be historically great throughout a season without winning the championship. It is possible to have 2 historically great teams in 1 season after all.
No it is not. Only one team gets to be historically great and that’s the one that won it all. By not finishing in 1st place that other team cannot be historically great.
Otherwise historically great has lost all meaning.
Historically great: an accomplishment so great that it is historic.
Examples: 73-win regular season (never done before; made history)
2016 championship (a championship gets won every year but still is part of history and greatness)
400 three pointers in a season (never done before; made history)
60+ points in final game for Kobe (historic, great game)
I agree that the 3-pointers and 73-wins are historical. And should be celebrated and remembered. Great accomplishsments.
See, we can agree on that at least. I’m just saying, regardless of whether you think the 2016 Warriors were overhyped by fans and media, it doesn’t mean they aren’t among the very best and most accomplished teams ever. And regardless of whether one thinks the Cavs were incorrectly considered underdogs heading into the series, they were still both great teams.
It was a great 7-game series and wouldn’t have been great without two great teams and great players.
@ Carson — Yes. Agree. I like the phrase “among the most accomplished teams” for the Ws. They accomplished a lot, and will be prominent in the record books on numerous dimensions.
They will be known mostly for losing the Finals.
“Destiny? Will? LeBron? Injuries? Collective positive mental energy? Luck? Defense?”
What about: Cavs are better team in 7-game series team when healthy? Last two years suggest that is possible.
What it doesn’t suggest is that the Warriors AREN’T a historically great team. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
It does suggest that though. It’s not possible to be historically great and lose the championship. If it is then historically great has lost all meaning.
So are you saying that championships are the only thing that validates greatness? You must think Bill Russell is GOAT then.
You are conflating the definition of team greatness with individual greatness. For individual greatness, championships are much less important. Individuals can only do so much. Thus, comparing Russell to others needs to extend beyond just Russell’s championships.
For team greatness, I think domination at the highest levels in the playoffs is the most impressive feat. So, yes, it’s a critical component in my view.
Obviously, “historically great” can eoncompass a lot of things. But for most of this season, the discussion around the Ws was that they were one of the top 2 or 3 teams of all-time. I think the struggles the Ws had the last two years against elite teams in the playoffs (nearly losing to OKC, having to sweat it out against a Cavs team last year that started Delly and Shump, and had James Jones as their 7th best player, and then losing to Cavs this year – including losing 4 of 5 and two at home) eliminate them from… Read more »
Let me ask you this then, do you think the 2016 Cavs are historically great?
@Carson — I don’t think this Cavs team is in the “best of all-time” convo. But I think they are a “top tier” type champ – i.e., they have one of the best players ever in his prime, they have several other truly elite players, solid role players, and an “extra gear” for big-time series.
@Hot Sauce — we have found some common ground (here and below)
Sure. That’s possible. But 4 point difference despite injured bogut and Iggy and Dray missing a game fires broadside into your theory.
If they re-played this series 100 times, I think the Cavs win it 15 times.
Interesting. I would say 50-55 times. 60 times if we had home court.
Yep.
But we don’t live in those alternate universes. We live in this one.
We were the better team after Game 2. I think if we replayed this series 100 times, we’d win 55+ times. We were better.
Have I mentioned that CtB is 100% the best blog of Cavs lately?
I think CtB should offically change its title: “CtB: 100% the Best Blog of the Cavs”
I love it that everybody who told me the Warriors were historically great were wrong. They had me believing it after we were down 3-1 too.
How do you figure the Warriors were not historically great? You’re seriously gonna take credit away from the Cavs like that?
A historically great team would win the title.
Is it impossible to fathom that *GASP* two historically great teams squared off in the Finals? A Finals where only one team can emerge as the winner? Haha one Game 7 loss doesn’t diminish an entire season and postseason of accomplishments.
Oh yes it does from a team context.
This idea that because the Warriors were frauds somehow diminishes the Cavs winning it all is nuts and I hope people don’t actually think this.
Winning championships is hard. Any title is worth just as much as any other title. If we had ended up playing the Trailblazers instead of the Warriors in the Finals it would in now way diminish what the Cavs did.
However, by beating the Warriors it in every way diminishes what the w Warriors accomplished. Their season is now meaningless.
No. It doesn’t. Meaning is subjective. You don’t get to decide what things “mean” for everyone else. Nor can you redefine the word “meaning” into a binary proposition.
Couldn’t disagree more. All championships are not weighted equally. No one cared about 2006 Heat-Mavs. Maybe you think that title was just as important to the history of basketball as this 2016 title was, but that is not the popular belief and popular opinion accounts for something when viewing things historically. Yes, winning championships is hard. That is why insinuating an historic 73-win team losing in 7 games to GOAT LeBron doesn’t diminish what they accomplished. We’ll be talking about the 2016 Warriors for years. Are you one of the people who think the 2007 Patriots had a meaningless season?… Read more »
They only bring up that Patriots team when talking about failure. Same with these Warriors. They will always be seen as failures.
Scottie says:
Everything is Awesome.
I was also glad you guys disagreed with the Curry injury theory. He was clearly healthly last year, and his TS% was almost identical in both Finals — 58%. These facts are conistent with his drop off in the Final being explained by Cavs defensive gameplan (which focused incredible energy on him) than on the injury (which wasn’t present last year when he played the same way).
Finally finished the PodCast. Good discussion overall — even if you are focusing on Bogut too much :) I was surprised no one offered the simplest explanation of the series — the Cavs are the better team. It seemed like the discussion was focused on resolving some complex mystery of how the Cavs won and what caused the Ws to not play as well. But I don’t think its that complicated. The Cavs really played poorly in G1 and G2, mostly because of the jump in level of play from TOR to GSW. We missed assignments, turned the ball over,… Read more »
Yep. Hot Sauce is correct.
I should add (before Nate gets mad): its a slim margin. Ws very good. But I find it frustrating that most analysis starts from premise Ws are better, and then looks for ways to explain how they lost. Given last year’s Finals, I just don’t see much evidence Ws better than Cavs in 7 game series when Cavs healthy.
Fair premise when discussing a team that won 73 games, though to be fair the cavs probably gave away 7-10 games through resting/experimenting, so are more like a 65 win team. Last year they wore us down. This year we wore them down.
Not when we just destroyed them and almost beat them last year despite missing two of our top players. There’s really no question who is better anymore.
Yeah, I am not sure its a fair premise. 7 game series are very different than regular season. They are just a completely different animal. I always thought last year’s Finals was much much more informative of what this year’s Finals would look like than anything that happened in the regular season (especially with Kyrie missing 25 games and then saving himself for playoffs, and LBJ saving himself). And it turns out it was. We slowed the Ws down in a very similar way to what we did last year. The differnce was we had more scoring with a healthy… Read more »
For Better or Worse the Cavaliers are the ones with the trophy.
What could be worse about it? :)
Great points on bogut/Barbosa below by Tom and Ben. Though I still am terrified by Barbosa
According to Stein, Dwight going on free agent visits with Atlanta and Boston. There’s your superstar, Danny, max him!
Talks of Wade maybe being ready to get out of Miami. Is he ready to take the mid-level exception and come chase rings with his buddy ‘Bron?
Wade’s not leaving 30+ million in contracts to chase a ring when he has three already. And Riley not sign and trading him to Cavs. Wade would be a decent Durant fallback for Spurs though.
Wade would be great here
Sorry about the outage, guys.
Thanks Nate for admitting I was right about chill mode!
No. You weren’t. He didn’t earn that right till this win.
So let me get this straight. I correctly point out that Irving should not be traded Delly, but that’s wrong. You incorrectly point out that Delly should start but that’s correct. I correctly point out after losses that it’s chill mode so who cares, but that’s wrong. You incorrectly point out that the Cavs need to play hard all the time because they can’t flip the switch and be great and that’s right.
This is so confusing.
Lol. Well that post didn’t make a lick of sense . And suffice it to say You’re consistently wrong when you try to paraphrase me. Let’s face it you’re like a stopped clock. Mostly wrong.
Tom is correct that Leb’s game 6 was awesomer than game 5. I think his game 6 was the best basketball I’ve ever seen a single player play. He just carried the team and orchestrated the offense in a way I’ve never seen before. Amazing.
And whoever pointed out the 6 straight points by Leb after the Warriors went up 4 or 5 with 5 minutes to go is absolutely right.
Very honest interview by Steve Kerr with a San Jose reporter. Talks about keeping Frye and Delly out of the series and is very honest about the Warriors’ breakdowns. Fascinating.
Lue played it perfectly after the first two games. Frye wasn’t effective vs the Warriors (although he was an important cog in the ATL and TOR series) and Delly sucked bad enough to be benched for the entire Finals (although he was at least not a tire fire and somewhat useful in the ATL and TOR series) so he got those guys out of the rotations. Why Kerr kepts playing a clearly horrible Andy made no sense to me.
Lue outcoached the coach of the year.
Wow. Shocked you guys are saying Bogut mattered. He had second worst +/- in series. Much worse than Andy. Just a strange opinion. And not only was Bogut not good in this series, all season long people kept saying Ws would be better if played death lineup more in place of Bogut. The idea that Bogut missing two games in this series changed the series is basically crazy. And if you are going to mention his two games, why not mention Love missing a game?
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&VsConference=East&PORound=4&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1
Yeah, it’s weird. Also the fact that Iggy was only injured for part of game 6 and looked completely healthy in game 7.
Bogut was a big contributor in the first two games particularly. Did you see all his blocks? The minutes that Bogut didn’t play were distributed, as mentioned, mostly to Ezeli and Varejao, who were woefully ineffective. Having Bogut out was indeed a big advantage. Ezeli’s terrible defense on LeBron in the 4th quarter allowed us to tie the game. And Andy did nothing.
He was a negative for the series. Andy sucked so bad. Just a horrible pick-up by them.
Andy was horrible not Bogut. It really is pointless discussing most anything rationally with you, so I need to return to not even trying.
Again, Ws actually played better with AV on floor than Bogut. The data show that pretty clearly.
AV better PnR defender, so that makes perfect sense. Bogut better rim protector, but got eaten alive on a lot of PnRs.
Bogut mattered. As much as Curry/Klay/Green/Livingston/Barbosa/Iggy? Nope. But in a 7 game series decided by four points? Yup.
Bogut > Ezeli + Varejao
Bogut*0 < Ezeli + Varejao.
Not sure why you find that so strange.
Well, I am the only one offering any data in support of my opinion. As shown above, the +/- data show Bogut as a negative for the series, 2nd worst on team, and much worse than Varejao and Ezeli. I agree that he is a better player againat most teams than AV or Ezeli, but against the Cavs Kyrie was eating him alive in PnRs because of how slow his lateral movement is. Ezeli and AV were bad, but were actually slightly better at defending Cavs strategy of PnRs with KI and LBJ. You have asserted Bogut is better without… Read more »
Nate made a rebuttal for me better than I could have explained in his +/- comment above.
Part of why death lineup was so effective was how they were being played and when they played. It wasn’t just WHO played. Bogut allowed the team to set a tone of physical play and to spell the bench guys (Iggy) so they Dubs could be at maximum effectiveness when they went death. I’m really starting to think in a post +/- mindset.
Nate is correct here, but the 10 minutes of Bogut/game is still being overstated.
What is he correct about? The death lineup played 8.4 minutes per game against OKC and 8.8 minutes a game against Cavs. The Bogut injury did not lead to overuse of death lineup. It just lead to others taking Bogut’s minutes. The others who took his minutes were more effective against the Cavs in this series.
Bogut didn’t matter. Lots of fascinating things mattered in this series. Bogut was not one of them.
Oh. I suck. I just assumed he had checked the stats. So Nate is wrong again. Hot Sauce is correct.
What evidence do you have that those who took Bogut’s minutes played more effective? Their +/- went down the drain and the Warriors went 0-3 in games with Bogut hurt.
I agree with you. Great point. But as I showed above, AV and Ezeli took Boguts minutes and had better +/- than Bogut in the series. Your argument hinges on the assumption that AV and Ezeli did worse than Bogut. Data contradict that.
Andy/Ezeli getting shredded by bench units much different than bogut getting beat by starters and not playing enough games to average out his -21 in game 3. Take out that game 3 where the dubs played like garbage and he’s -4 just under 48 minutes including the game where he played half a game cause he got hurt. He had a great first two games, a lousy game 3 (as did the whole team) and an ok game 4 (which they won). The sample sizes are too small to draw enormous conclusions about bogut based on +/-. The evidence I… Read more »
As I said, I thought they missed him. His screens help Steph and Klay get in a rhythm and his rim protection helps set the tone and keep other team from getting into rhythm. He’s a guy whose impact extends beyond +/-
“Andy/Ezeli getting shredded by bench units much different than bogut getting beat by starters.” Ezeli started G7 and played Bogut’s rotation. So I am not sure I follow this logic for G7. Also, this logic completely contradicts the general wisdom that Kerr’s decision to bench Bogut last year in favor of Iggy and the Death Lineup was the main reason they turned the series around. Now all of sudden starting Iggy is somehow a major blow to this team. It’s inconsistent logic. Also if you want to take out G3, why not take out G2 where the Ws blew out… Read more »
You could also look at the +/- for the Varejao + Ezeli combo after Bogut left the series. They were much, much worse: +7 in the first 5 games (Bogut played 8 min. before getting hurt in Game 5) -27 in the last two games without Bogut Is the +/- affected by the fact the Cavs won the last three games and went 4-1 after going 0-2? Probably. It’s a team stat that doesn’t necessarily reflect the play of individuals. For example, I don’t think Kevin Love outplayed LeBron in Game 7 despite the +19. That’s part of why +/-… Read more »
I also explained the basketball logic of why Bogut is a bad fit for Cavs — he is a major liability in PnR’s in open space outside the paint. The Cavs attacked him there. Last year, Kerr was forced to bench him in the Finals because he was such a liability, and the move was celebrated as the most important strategic move of the series. Now, this year, Bogut missing 2 games is supposed to be the reason they lost? It makes no sense. There are just so many interesting basketball elements of this series — why do people want… Read more »
None the frustration ever said he was THE reason. But he was A reason: one of many.
Agreed Bogut has his cons and isn’t the most important storyline, but he still makes the Ws better than his replacements. The Cavs could’ve used every edge they got in that series (however small), and it was just one item to make a point on.
Starting Iggy with a bad back was an issue. The Iggy we saw in games 1-5 was not the Iggy we saw in games 6 and 7.
The Cavs solved a lot of the Bogut issue after Game 2. They started pressing up on him cutting his passing angles and making those backdoor passes much more difficult to get off. His rim protection was also less a factor when the Cavs went smaller. He is clearly a better player than either Festus or Andy but I don’t think he would have changed too much. As far as Barbosa is concerned, Kerr thought that Festus could hang with LeBron on a switch like he has been able to in the past . Barbosa would have had zero chance.… Read more »
Ah, the trials and tribulations of the +/- stat. I know I’ve worshiped a bit too heavily at the altar of it’s big brother RPM throughout the last two seasons, and it got me to that now much-aligned position of “Delly can run the offense, Kyrie can’t.” It’s one of those things that is true in its ability to describe the past, but sort of bad at predicting what will happen, especially in the playoffs and the finals. Kyrie’s scoring didn’t make up for his poor ball distribution and defense in the regular season and parts of the playoffs, and… Read more »
Great point. Though I disagree on Barbosa. I was terrified he’d play and destroy Cavs in second half of game seven. Total brain fart by Kerr not to play him.
Me too.
I used the two extreme stats not to show that they were meaningless but rather that they both say that the players had some good games and some bad games, or at least had impact in some and not others, in spite of what the congregate series +/- indicates. This does, as you point out, include when the coaches (or the injury bug) decide to play them.
Good post 6thCity! Agree that +/- is a vacuum is dangerous. Gotta think about the matchups on the floor, rotations, etc. In the case of Bogut, his weak +/- is interesting because one of his major weaknesses is dealing with PnRs in open space outside the paint, which is exactly how the Cavs were attacking him. As I noted below in another comment, Bogut was such a bad match up for Cavs that Kerr actually had to bench him in the Finals last year and move Iggy into starting lineup. He just isn’t a super important piece against Cavs. When… Read more »
His 3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and the way he ran PnR with LeBron should have informed the “he can run the offense” claims. RAPM or RPM just shows he’s more valuable than his production and low usage indicate.
The finals certainly counts for more, it Delly was good in the playoffs overall.
Tom is correct that I loved old school iso ball won us this series. The thing is though, is they got there by playing new wave screening and passing basketball through ATL and Toronto. That’s why you need both and having guys like Leb and Kyrie to get buckets is so necessary.
Which is why the trade Kyrie and install Delly (useless in the Finals) people were so annoying.
And also right… Anyway, this wasn’t straight iso-ball. They were exploiting the dubs’ unwillingness to trap and their propensity to switch everything by running simple screen actions to get them into isolations Cleveland wanted. There’s not a lot “old school” about it,especially since the Warriors weren’t really defending in an old school manner.
No. The trade Kyrie and install Delly people were insane, not right. Or did you already forget the Finals? Mo was Mo valuable than Delly in the Finals.
Of course they were right. Kyrie had to improve. Without their constant criticism and rightness, he never does. Kyrie owes his critics a huge debt for their honesty.
Um, Kyrie won it playing his way. Not Nate’s way where he’d become John Wall.
Huh? When did I ever in a million years compare Kyrie to John wall? Anyway his critics wanted him to defend, not turn the ball over, and work within the confines of an offense. He did all three.
30 other NAB teams would pay Kylie the max w/o hesitation. I have no idea what Cavs fans gripe about. He is what he is — great.
MO WAS NOT VALUABLE EVER THIS SEASON.
Agree with Tom. We were lucky we survived putting him in for a couple minutes in game 7. I am glad we got him a ring, but we need better going forward.
Cols equally annoying is your constant comment that players are either “awesome” or “suck.” The world and basketball isn’t black and white. The Kyrie Irving of the regular season would probably have led to a series loss to the Warriors. To his enormous credit, Irving stepped it up big time. That doesn’t mean you can look at KI’s regular season erratic play with the proverbial rose colored glasses. Delly was a contributor during the first rounds of the playoffs, which your rose colored glasses prevent you from seeing. We probably won’t match a $7-8m/year offer that Delly may get, so… Read more »
I think we’d match anything less than $10M for Delly.
Pau is not returning to the bulls. Would he take a major pay cut to come play for us? Would we want him?
We would definitely want him. I don’t think he’d take a big enough paycut to play here though.
Unfortunately, he would be a nice addition to the Thunder, Warriors or Spurs. :(
The biggest reason the series shifted was because the Cavs refused to let up on Curry. Curry was tired and hurt but not in the way people think. He wasn’t tired from a long regular season. He didnt play that many minutes and he did not even go through the playoffs grind. He wasn’t still injured from the knee sprain. The Cavs tired him out in every game. The Cavs did go ISO to win the series but they went ISO against Curry and slower bigs. EVERY time. They forced Curry to use energy every defensive possession and didn’t let… Read more »
This. Even if Curry was, say, 90% that couldn’t explain the downright bricks he launched as threes during many games. I watched 6-7 Warriors games this year not involving the Cavs, and rarely saw Curry either hit the side of the rim or miss altogether, as he did against the Cavs. Klay threw up some bricks too. Lue kept talking about physicality and that indeed was the recipe. As discussed previously, would the refs let players be this physical during the season? And of course, it’s just tough for any team to play this way all year………..like a back to… Read more »
YES indeed. We pounded lil’ Steph. We got close to that recipe last year and OKC did something similar, but both of those series focused only on beating up Steph on the offensive end. The Cavs added in the wrinkle of picking on him on Defense, and he couldn’t keep it up.
On our side, LBJ was indestructible. #ItsAMansLeague
Yep. Ty Lue is a genius.
The Cavs made good adjustments from game-to-game and throughout the series. And maybe the Warriors made poor adjustments. For instance, in Game 5 with Bogut and Green out, the Warriors chose to have Iguodala guard Love instead of Lebron. And the Cavs proceeded to beat the snot out of them. In Game 7, the Warriors would obligingly switch to whomever the Cavs preferred. It was almost like a video game: two Cavs players would get close to one another and the Warriors defenders would magically switch without even trying to stick with their original player. Often, this involved switching Curry… Read more »