Podcast Episode 105: D-Day or Dunkirk? (Parts I & II)
2016-06-07https://soundcloud.com/ctb-5/episode-105-d-day-or-dunkirk-part-i
Painting I: Commemorating the Anniversary of the D-Day Landings, Normandy Beach, 6 June 1944 (c) Terry Harrison
On the anniversary of D-Day, Nate thanked the heavens that Tom and his despairing attitude hadn’t poisoned the Allied spirit, especially in Britain during the early years of WWII, lest “we’d all be speaking German today.” On the contrary, had it not be for the evacuation at Dunkirk, some licking of the wounds, and a massive “reloading” about which the world hath never seen before or since (in 1939, annual U.S. Military aeroplane production was 3,000. By 1944 the U.S. had built over 300,000 planes), the Allies may not have prevailed.
With such a dramatic vignette, we humbly offer our “saber-tooth podcast” where we mostly try to answer the question: What, if anything, can the Cavs do about the Warriors? Both in Games 3, and 4, and as LeBron continues his trek along the proverbial Back Nine. Rebuild? Reload? Surrender? Hope Curry retires to play pro golf?
We can be heard above, on SoundCloud, or on iTunes.
https://soundcloud.com/ctb-5/episode-105-d-day-or-dunkirk-part-ii
Painting II: The Withdrawl from Dunkirk, June 1940 by Charles Ernest Cundall
In part II, Ben Werth ironically joins us from Germany to answer: has Kyrie Irving improved since he was a rookie? What adjustments the Cavs can make? How warranted is LeBron’s “genius” reputation? What are our silver linings? And there’s so much more. Do the Cavs retreat and regroup, or is this their D-Day?
EvilGenius believes that Kyrie Irving is redeemable. Tom, does not. Ben (ironically calling in from Germany) explains that it’s not even about Kyrie – it’s always been about LeBron and the way all the King’s dogs go to role-player heaven whether they like it or not. Nate refuses to answer the question. It’s not a happy podcast, because not all things are happy. (And please note that we don’t include any of this to make light of the awe inspiring sacrifices that so many made for our freedom on D-Day. May that day never be forgotten.)
Give us your answers.
1.) Should the Cavs keep the gang together?
2.) Why doesn’t Kyrie do the little things that it takes to be great? (Is Kyrie Irving redeemable?)
2.) Should the Cavs continue switching on defense?
3.) What adjustments can they make in Games 3 and 4?
Here’s the criticism from the analytics crowd that Tom mentioned:
I made a little video on Kyrie Irving's defensive mistakes in the 1st half of G1 of the finalshttps://t.co/zbbvY8sh6O
— Jeremias Engelmann (@JerryEngelmann) June 3, 2016
And here’s the bit from Ben Alamar:
I see the ceiling for the Cavs being set by Kyrie. He has tremendous potential, but is essentially the same player he was when he came into the league. He can have great moments, but overall hasn’t shown a lot of growth in his game on either end of the court. The Cavs need him to step up significantly if they hope to really compete with whoever comes out of the West.
Finally, here is the video breakdown of LeBron’s defense that Ben mentioned:
JUST GOT BACK FROM SUMMER BASKETBALL CAMP —A GREAT QUOTE FROM ONE OF THE COLLEGE COACHES —” THE WILL HAS TO BE GREATER THAN THE SKILL TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP “–THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE MAIN PROBLEMS ( THERE ARE MORE ) OF THIS CAVS TEAM ——–IF WE ARE GOING TO RELOAD THIS SUMMER WHAT ABOUT A T.T. / SHUMP FOR OKAFOR OR NOEL —-LOVE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE ” WHIPPING BOY ” BUT NOT NECESSARILY DESERVING OF THIS ——-IN ABOUT AN HOUR THE MRS NOMAD AND I ARE LEAVING FOR THE FINGER LAKES AREA IN NEW… Read more »
Great, sobering podcast guys. From what I’ve seen so far, unfortunately, I don’t have confidence that Lue is going to be up for the task of making any type of effective adjustments such as some of the ones you guys suggested. And even if he does, I’m even less confident that he would be able to make counter adjustments when Kerr inevitably counters, as he seems to be poor (Mike Brown like) in making in game adjustments. While it probably makes no difference now, it seems clear now that “chemistry” in favor of X’s and O’s prowess was not the… Read more »
Also forgot to add that this (series so far) is why we want a “borderline genius” offensive system because in today’s NBA, if you’re up against a smart defense and if your crutch is ISO ball, even if you have the best ISO players, you are bound to fail. And kudos for Lue for trying to break this habit but half a season isn’t enough and there should have been more buy in at the beginning.
I believe the Cavs should try to build a team with players with good length like the Warriors have. It gives the Warriors and incredible advantage on defense when they play Green, Klay, Iguodala, Barnes and Curry cause they can basically switch on every position defensively without giving up much. I believe their length on the perimeter is the main reason why the Cavs shooters haven’t been able to get into any kind of rythm. They can clog the paint and in just 2 or 3 long steps they are able to close out on shooters effectively. It should also… Read more »
More Lue speaks, more he is getting exposed as a coach.
—
Brian Witt: Tyronn Lue on Kyrie Irving: “He has the best handle in the NBA, so he’s able to play iso basketball.”
I think it’s kind of a dumb comment, but there is some truth in it. And make no mistake, I am firmly in Ben Werth’s camp on Kyrie…I’m so firmly in his camp that I’m constructing a rustic and charming cabin on the grounds.
I’ll play the reveille.
Interesting, we used to be so frustrated with Monta Ellis Isos that used to make Curry a spectator
haha… Bring marshmallows.
This state is beyond damning to Kyrie, and to a lesser extent James, for not rolling more to the basket. Not that Kyrie would actually pass to him.
Cavs should try to trade Kyrie for Conley or Teague, better fits with Lebron.
Disagree. If we do trade Kyrie, we *have* to get better than just that.
Conley is a free agent and Teague isn’t a good enough shooter or defender to pair with Bron.
Why the fish is Kyrie playing Posey one-on-one in practice? That’s the exact reason we’re in this sucky situation. Morons.
Warriors are gonna win because of their defense. Defense wins championships.
Kyrie and Kev, defense wins championships.
Once again, Love is not a problem is drating is 102. Combined with his offensive rating of 112, this is a huge positive.
The Cavs should not keep switching on defense. They do not have the personnel to do it, as OKC did. It’s always going to lead to a favorable matchup for GS, and the Cavs don’t even do it well enough, anyway – they usually have some breakdown that gives up a layup or dunk. But it probably doesn’t matter, anyway.
Since Love is likely out tomorrow (and the Cavs have been much better with him on the floor than off so far), who do we start? Shump or Frye seems logical. Maybe RJ since he’s been so good?
RJ needs to continue to come off the bench. If he starts, our bench production will be 0. I hope it forces Lue to start Frye.
I would start Frye or Mozzy, and then immediately go to RJ as soon as Kerr goes Iggy for Bogut. I would only play RJ, Shump, Delly off bench, and I would sit KI any time Curry is off the court.
1:46 actual video of Kyrie and LeBron running pick and roll.
KYRIE at 0:40!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And at 0:55!!!!!! “My bad…”
Lol
Buckets!!!!
I’m dying at the PnR. This is just amazing.
Kyrie again at 1:12 setting a pick!
You have to get your girls into this. Funniest show on TV and completely clean.
It looks funny. I’m seriously cracking up at this clip, especially since I read Tom’s comments first then watched with no audio on my work computer, I just made up the voices with Cavs players.
Would be hilarious to see that exact clip spliced with audio from the live broadcast – “bare”ly indistinguishable from the actual game footage X’D
That is so Kyrie, it’s scary.
DELLY AT 0:49!!!!!!!!!!!
I wish Kyrie could run P&R this well. I’m totally serious, too.
Yeeeessss!!!! All the times you guys cited are perfect! hahaha
You guys are good at this. If everyone I knew that asked me the questions “What’s wrong with this team? Why are they looking this badly?” had an hour, I would direct them to this podcast. There are just a lot of problems and that’s the scary part. Someone, I don’t know who, mentioned a long time ago, “Are the Cavs good at the wrong time?”. Meaning, LeBron came back to CLE when the Warriors decided they were going to own the league for the foreseeable future. That’s what scares me the most. We finally have this team and it… Read more »
It’s just Cleveland’s luck to have LeBron come home and then WHOOP! the best team in NBA history just happens to pop up out of nowhere in the Western Conference. Thanks for playing, Cle!
Cleveland in every sense of the name.
CAVS IN 6!!! Remember Detroit series from 2007.
(My attempt at positivity. We can DO this.)
Yes we can.
Go Hot Sauce, Go!
We need to BELIEVE that if we play well we can win. We all believed that a week ago, and we haven’t played well yet.
Win two dogfights at home, shock the world and pull out Game 5 in GS, then come back and win it in a triple-overtime classic in front of the Cleveland crowd. Count me in!
Wow. That would be so good.
I get the hopelessness, and I think the Ws are amazing, but we have played really bad. I just want to see us play well in G3. If we lose playing well, that is fine. But I think we would win. Then the pressue of the series flips. Then we have some drama.
1.) Should the Cavs keep the gang together? NO 2.) Why doesn’t Kyrie do the little things that it takes to be great? (Is Kyrie Irving redeemable?) It is not in his DNA, similar to Harden and Melo in that way. 2.) Should the Cavs continue switching on defense? No, OKC had success with switching but Cavs don’t have athletes or high IQ players like OKC to do that. 3.) What adjustments can they make in Games 3 and 4? Go for big changes not small changes. Small changes won’t do much given the disparity between two teams. Start Delly… Read more »
Give us some insight from the mind of a Warriors fan. What’s it like to have everyone literally terrified of your team?
It is like a dream come true for long suffering fans. 40 years of no championships and missing playoffs most seasons. As warriors fan we suffered through Sprewell’s choke, Monta Ellis suspension, the selfish and cancerous players like Stephen Jackson, bad drafts year after year, a owner who didn’t care etc.. We were so desperate to look for light at the end of the tunnel, we used to pin hope on likes of Larry Hughes as franchise player. Even when we were blessed with Curry’s pick, we still had to endure Monta Ellis, worst coach of all time in Keith… Read more »
More in common than I would have figured.
lol
I do have empathy for Cavs, I was rooting for Lebron lead Cavs to win championships pre decision.
Just wanna let you know – as much misery as you feel you’ve had during a 40 year title drought…..The 49ers and Giants have won enough championships.
it’s irritating when Red Sox fans used to complain about being lovable losers while the Patriots and Celtics were running out of room to keep their trophies,
Or the Cubs fans crying. You got 6 championships with Michael Jordan.
Yes, as a city, there is none out there that can hold a candle to our inability to win ANYTHING in three major sports.
I watched the Jeremias Engelmann video multiple times. I think that I would change the title of his video from “Kyrie Irving’s defensive mistakes in the 1st half of G1” to “Warriors effective offensive game plan and match ups cause big problems for Cavs.”
Based on his captions, there were three main criticisms of Kyrie’s defense: getting switched onto a bigger player (good GSW strategy, not his fault), no effort on running back (redeemable), and not boxing out (redeemable).
I agree the video wasn’t egregiously damning. It was just interesting because he seemed so surprised on Twitter at Kyrie’s lack of intensity. And then the next morning he posted that. A lot of people were like “this isn’t that bad” and his response was: “uh, it’s the FINALS. He’s not going to go harder than this?”
Title or not I hope the management builds the best Cavs team that can compete with anyone in the league and not just be the best team in the east that will take its chance for a favorable matchup whoever comes out in the west. The organization never learn do they? That’s not a formula for anything.. After 08′ the Cavs brought tools to compete with the Celtics, then got the Magic instead. After 09′ they brought Shaq to match Dwight, then got the Celtics again. Now, they took chances against GS by betting on health and a year under… Read more »
Yep. Which is reason number one not to blow it up. They made moves this year to get better and I’m sure they will continue to do so. But blowing it up and trading Love or Irving just because you have a bad matchup against one and only one team is dumb. Keep improving.
Which is what they did this year. There;’s no doubt this team is better this year than last year, keep continuity and keep improving.
Nah…
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z359/lollerskater1/coolguysdontlookatexplosions.gif
It’s going to be up to your guy, Lebron. He might not be of the same mind as you.
Reality is, our players are either.. Bad defenders(Kyrie, Mo, Kev), average to very good but not elite defenders (Delly RJ), great at only one facet on defense(TT, Moz), good but really inconsistent to bad (Frye, JR), very good defender but a liability on offense(Shump), and a former elite but now only great (Lebron). It’s not far from what GS have individually but like what guys are saying, they act as strings on defense that they can protect inside and out with lesser difficulty. If our team can’t act the same way, then a lot of our guys will be exposed… Read more »
This is a reasonable take. The only thing to remember though is that Love has not been horrible on defense. His defensive rating per 100 is 102. And is Orating is 112.
That’s pretty great. Love is really not the problem. The problem is
1. The Warriors are really really great
2. We could use some more rim protection since Moz sucks.
I can’t remember the last time a player has deteriorated from one year to the next like Moz has. I am sure by now he has recovered from the knee procedure, but perhaps he is a fragile player mentally too. Remember he went for something like 28 and 12 in game four last year, when GS dared him to beat them.
I don’t think it’s mental. I think for six months he played as great as he possibly could and he’s reverted back to what he was for most of his career.
^ This. I never watched much of Moz of previous from NY to Denver but is seems to me that he lost his nimbleness that basically his advantage to other bigs his size and made him very good last year.
Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel are available ;)
I heard Noah isn’t happy with the Bulls ;) Ha, but seriously I maybe getting too much ahead with this but we’re all frustrated and the hope of improvement might ease the pain of today.
Can’t shoot. He might have some good years ahead of him, but he is play-making nonshooter. That isn’t the type of player to share the frontcourt with LeBron.
If you can get Horford or Marc Gasol for Love though… Bazemore, Affalo, Fournier would be smaller but great additions.
all of that may be true, but good coaching can turn average defenders into great team defenders. You have to spend a ridiculous amount of time learning how to properly zone up the weakside to limit passing angles, use leverage with body positioning and stay firmly in a trust on trust gameplan. The Cavs could be an elite defense right now if the coaching staff and LeBron had made it a real priority and not just given it lip service. It is a HUGE fallacy that defense is only about “trying”. No it isn’t. Obviously, you need to put forth… Read more »
That Bball breakdown video is an excellent one to shed light on LeBrons overrated defense. Wish he didn’t have to act like a coach every time he stepped on the floor. Just execute the game plan, you are not some kind of “genius” who knows every play. He was responsible for a free 10-15 points from the Warriors, for horrible defense and not boxing out. It’s ludicrous. Even more shocking how he yells at Tristan and JR in the video, when he clearly was at fault. He sure seems like a great leader when things are going well, but when… Read more »
This narrative that LeBron is running roughshod over the organization is completely and totally wrong. Lue is the coach. The players respect and listen to him. LeBron has been playing magnificently over these playoffs, actually the whole Cavs team has been. They’ve sucked for these last two games. The whole team has from Lue on down. But making up narratives to satisfy your pre-conceived notions of who LeBron is is insulting, IMO. The team has sucked. The Warriors have been great. Things can change, don’t make up stuff or pretend to know what’s going on in LeBron’s head. Dude has… Read more »
Respond to the actual comment and analysis instead of repeating your opinion without any supporting evidence ad nauseum. Hard to watch that video and disagree with running jumper and Cavsgoodkarma.
I was not responding to running jumper.
To put in context, Lebron’s defense has been overrated the past 2 seasons. Not elite since 2014 finals, but has been great overall. The consistency of the Swiss-knife defense is gone. Yes this might be the best supporting cast “talent-wise”, but fair or not, reality is this might not be the best “fit-wise” in defense obviously. So does he need more help? Yes, but not to the extent of blowing it up. We need to replace some parts to make this engine more efficient. Like I said prior, Lebron isn’t young anymore, and the defense will be exposed because of… Read more »
1. Sure. I’m not at all going for the blow it up path. We win the title this year or not, we need to change some parts come next season. The way I see it, a defensive wing and a mobile paint-defending big are the needs. 2. He is redeemable. Tom, remember the instacap where we touched up on a theory about injuries? There might be some truth there. But I’ve seen Kyrie do the “little” things in last year’s postseason including the finals. I’m certain that he won’t be an all nba defender at any point, but in the… Read more »
Blowing it up seems stupid. This is probably the GSW best team having it’s best year and it won’t be repeated. This Cavs team has not yet peaked. Go with this team another year. Give them a full year with this roster and this coach and they can probably hit another level.
1.) Should the Cavs keep the gang together? Absolutely. You don’t break up a team just because they lost the first two games of the Finals to what everyone keeps telling me is an all-time team. Let them grow for a couple of years 3.) What adjustments can they make in Games 3 and 4? Play faster. In 2014 Finals Popovich made an adjustment when he saw his team unable to generate offense against Miami’s awesome defense. He told his team to settle for the good shot instead of working the ball to get a great shot. This is the… Read more »
The opening “forgive the terrible pun” needs to be edited out . it’s because my original title used the word “Dunk-kirk”
Edited…
Totally agree with the Irving assessment – amazing, all-time scrimmage / ASG / And-1 player, but an NBA loser. You can add Kevin Love to the NBA loser category as well. And this is not a new revelation from two games, this has been this case their entire NBA careers. I usually listen to all the ESPN NBA podcasts (Lowe, Truehoop, NBA Today, etc) but had to stop; they were driving me nuts with their Love takes. Essentially, the entire analysis of the Cavs-Warriors matchup is that Love is unplayable. And then, when it’s deemed inevitable that the Cavs can’t… Read more »
I think we would have taken the Thunder this year.
Yep. We beat the Thunder. We basically beat any team not named the Warriors.
My takes on your questions: 1) I think this team as constructed can get out of the East the next 2-3 years in LeBron’s golden years, but can’t obviously beat GS or perhaps OKC if Durant stays. So, yes, the gang must be shuffled with either Love or Irving getting moved. 2) Kyrie is simply unwilling to do the little things to be great. He is a superb offensive talent with tunnel vision and terrible defense that hurts the team as shown in the video above. If we get the right players, I would favor moving him. 3) I almost… Read more »
I’m 100% sure that Cavs:the Blog is the best Cavs blog around
But there’s no way I’m going to listen to a negative podcast today.
EG and I actually campaigned around some of your comments from yesterday. But, that’s probably a good idea, Cols.
The entire national media has decided after two games that Cleveland sucks. Even though this isn’t true. I do not want to listen to a local podcast that discusses this. We needed a positive podcast. I mean we lost the first two games but can change it around with a win in game three. This team has been playing it’s heart out and went 12-2 in the ECF.. I do not want to listen to a bunch of giggling about how awful it is to root for a team that is in the Finals for the second straight season.
Then don’t listen. We do our best to be as objective as possible, which is difficult to balance with being such fans of this team. To be honest, Cols, there’s not a great deal to be positive about thus far in this series. Just because they had a great playoff run to this point, doesn’t mean they get a pass that just carries over into the Finals. It’s your opinion that they’ve been “playing their hearts out” but there are more than a couple of examples of the opposite being true. Again, if you don’t want to listen, that’s your… Read more »
Right. I’m not listening. There aren’t tons of woes on this team. Right now they are the 2nd best in the NBA for two years running with a good chance at being number one at some point. I will not listen to an everything sucks podcast if everything doesn’t suck.
Here’s a challenge for you… name something in this series (in these two games) that you believe is a positive…
They’ve largely held Klay and Steph down. The defense is not the number one issue. The issue is the Warriors have absolutely flummoxed us on offense. Our best bet this series was to go nuts on offense and it hasn’t happened. But, and this is important, just because we haven’t done it doesn’t mean we can’t do it. And it doesn’t mean that we are fatally flawed. If we don’t do it it just means that all of the pundits were correct and this GSW team is an all-time great team. Maybe you think blowing it up when you lose… Read more »
Largely held Klay and Steph down from scoring maybe, but not from facilitating to others who have scored easily. Have you seen the amount of uncontested dunks and threes the Warriors have taken in this series?
Also, if you listened to the podcast (which I know you won’t based on your repeated statements), you’d hear that I’m not actually advocating to blow it up… even though I wouldn’t blame @CavsDan for doing so given LBJ’s remaining championship window…
Yes. The Warriors are really freaking good. It’s hard to both stop Klay and Steph and then stop their role players as well.
do you call 35 pts in 24 shots and 8/16 from 3s as ‘stopping’ ? Warriors will gladly take this efficient output from them.
Also I don’t need 500 comments about how you’re not listening to today’s content. That’s dumb. If you want to talk about what we said, fine, but spare me your reactions to others’ reactions without any context, and spare me your reaction to what you think we said. Your conclusions are bad enough when you do actually listen.
Hey Nate. I have been largely correct this year.
http://arthistoryteachingresources.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/revisionist-history.jpg
Can you please do us a favor and put this after every Cols post?
Ok, but who is the Cavs’ Churchill? “We shall fight in the paint. We shall fight at the arc. We shall fight through illegal screens. We shall fight to run the offense. We shall never surrender…”
Nate thinks he’s Churchill.
I’m the Churchill to your Chamberlain.
So that leaves me Roosevelt or Stalin… hmmmmm….
You an evil genius
How the hell are you awake?
I think GSW will want to finish the series at home this year. They will take their foot off the gas in game 3, and close the series on their home floor in game 5.
Yeah, probably
Is that your way of saying “I hope this doesn’t end up in a sweep so we keep some of our pride”?? ;p
No, I honestly think they will purposely give us a game so they can close on their home floor. Further taking our dignity, and extending the misery for one game more than necessary.
Nate, let people talk.
Sorry. I’m an excitable boy.
And it seems almost unbelievable that the Warriors somehow more or less traded a turd like Jack for Livingston. Incredible.
Thanks guys. I had an epiphany when I saw someone compare KI to Marbury with better PR. I had never thought of that, but, god, it seems so dead on. I think Irving is a little better, but it’s so accurate for the most part.