5 on 5: Wild Thing Edition

1. What was your initial reaction to the Anderson Varejao trade?

Ben: Utter disappointment and sadness. And yes, obviously in a sports context. But do we really need to make that caveat all the time? Does anyone think we mean level 10 sadness when discussing sports? It’s a pet peeve of mine. When random Bob says something really bums him out in the sports realm, random George is always trying to remind Bob to “put things in perspective”. Most of the time that George is arguing the other point of view or simply doesn’t value Bob’s opinion. Left with no other recourse, George denigrates the whole discussion by implying that Bob considers sports absurdly important. Listen, I know it’s “only sports” and that “these guys are all really wealthy” but few things have turned me off to a franchise as much as this trade. Those were my first feelings after I heard the news. My first thought: “I can’t believe we have let LeBron blow up this franchise twice. Wiggins, Blatt, now this.” I didn’t say the first thought was necessarily logical.

Nate: I was overcome by sadness, anger, disbelief, melancholy…As I said in the podcast, I saw a fourth of my life go by. Andy was walking history. What’d we have when we started watching Andy? Tube televisions, AOL, and dumbphones. The world moved by, but Andy was always there, with an infectious smile, brutal screens, and those locks, whether or not he was playing or not, were always making us smile.

My daughter was not even a year old when he was added to the team. As I’ve coached her over the years, I’ve told her that if there’s one guy to model her game after, it’s Andy: the passing, the screens, the perfectly timed cuts, the relentless rebounding, the competitiveness. She was so upset. She saw it on the TV right before I sat down to dinner and could break the news. We were both heartbroken. It was about like this.

Cory: I was caught off guard that it happened now. Three years ago I was openly advocating for the Cavs to deal him, not just to maximize his value, but also provide Andy will the opportunity to spend the remainder of his prime playing in meaningful games May.

David: We don’t deserve the title anymore. The NBA has become too unemotional. Teams, aside from the Spurs, don’t stand by the people they’ve had for a long time. Andy came into the league a Cavalier and should have been allowed to leave the league a Cavalier, no matter how expensive his contract ultimately was. And, now, the Warriors have him and probably many of the Cavs’ plays. Although, Andy could actually be a super secret double agent who only joined the Warriors to send the Cavs all of their juicy secrets.

Tom: I was bummed out and confused when I heard the news, but not surprised.  Windy had been alluding to the Cavs trying to deal Varejao.  I am frustrated that the Cavs did not play Andy more during the regular season to see what he had left after coming off the Achilles surgery.  I think I was the most emotional about it when LeBron threw down a crazy dunk that night against Chicago.  The crowd went bananas, LeBron was flexing, and the thought came over me that Varejao was not on the bench to share that moment with his teammates, his city.

2. Are you upset with the Cavs for trying to save money or is it understandable that they would want 40 million dollars in savings?

Ben: I’m upset. While the rest of the world was ripping Dan Gilbert for comic sans, most Cleveland fans were defending his passion and willingness to spend. Gilbert hasn’t done a great job of hiring front-office guys, but the one thing that fans could always count on was his checkbook. He consistently spared no expense in his effort to build a winner. The basketball gods rewarded him for that in the form of Kyrie Irving(via Baron Davis salary dump). Now, all of a sudden, 40 mil in savings trumps both David Griffin’s post-Blatt rhetoric about having great locker-room chemistry and LeBron’s “brotherhood.” Look, I get it. 40 mil is a lot and theoretically that extended trade-exception can help in the future. Furthermore, most sports franchises know that fans will follow them regardless of ineptitude. (see Browns). But I think the Cavs’ FO miscalculated on this one. They gambled that Andy wasn’t important enough to the fanbase or the team. 40 million may have been the better gamble.

Nate: Tom and I have a fundamental disagreement on this question. I contend that you can’t separate out the Frye and Varejao trades as logically different transactions. Yes, shedding Andy’s $9.7 million contract “saved” the Cavs $40 million in salary and tax payments. But then they turned around and added Frye’s $7.8 million contract. Combined with moving Cunningham’s $981K contract, the net savings was actually around $10 million off of this year’s bottom line, and more off next season’s bottom line, not $40 million. I wish I had Donald Trump around to abuse Tom for being a part of the evil media that asked this question.

Am I going to fault Griffin and Dan Gilbert for not sliding Frye into the Cavs’ existing exception and adding another $30+ million in salary? No. That’s silly. Furthermore, there are real advantages for the Cavs to try to avoid being repeatedly over the luxury tax apron, and having a significant trade exception through next summer and right before the trade deadline next year. I understand why they structured the trade(s)the way they did. And remember, this is coming from a guy who hated the move and thinks it will be a big problem for Cleveland.

Cory: It didn’t bother me at all. Nate pondered in a C:tB email thread if the Andy trade could be Griffin’s Waterloo, but in my mind, Griffin’s biggest mistake was Andy’s extension in the first place. In him giving a guy who had played in five games during the month of April over the past five years nearly $20 million guaranteed, he bypassed extending Tristan to a $60 million deal at the same time. A year later @CavsDan had to shell out another $22 million to keep TT. I can’t help but assume that Andy’s luxury tax multiplying deal also kept the Cavs from re-signing Matthew Dellavedova to a longterm deal this summer. Delly re-signed for $1,147,000. Could they have gotten Delly to ink a four-year, $12 million deal? Probably. They didn’t because of the luxury tax castration they would have received in the form of paying $3.50 on every dollar they gave to Delly. This might sounds bananas, but it’s not out of the realm of possibilities that Delly will command $8 million per season or more next summer with the ability to start. The Cavs can’t match that. Andy’s deal was so bad that a little over a year later they had to throw in a first round draft pick to get someone to pay Varejao then waive him. If there’s a Waterloo for Griffin tenure on the rusty throne, it was the Varejao extension.

David: I’m very upset. This team is clearly a win now team. They should be going all in while LeBron is still hovering around his prime. Dan Gilbert and David Griffin fired David Blatt mid-season citing the fact the team should be meshing more as a group. Why would you trade away one of the players that seemed to clearly care about the team being united? Andy gives it his all, whether he’s diving for a rebound, or cheering from the bench after a dunk. This was a terrible money saving move.

Tom: I’ve been wondering for a while now when the luxury tax would start to get to CavsDan and company.  I can’t fault them for this move, as they’re shelling out so much money for this team.  But it does seem to be exclusively a money saving move, as JoeyB has pointed out on multiple occasions.  I’m not going to start calling Dan Gilbert cheap, that’s for sure.  But I wish someone in the organization would explain to me why Varejao never played while they rushed Mozgov back from an injury (and Moz was practically unplayable).  It made no sense: the Cavs had the highest defensive rating with Varejao on the court and the best rebounding percentage.  They also had the lowest opponent assist percentage and lowest allowed Points in the Paint totals with Varejao running around.  It was only 310 minutes of action, but the Cavs did so well in those 310 minutes.  Why not more?

3. Will Channing Frye help the Cavs going forward more than Anderson Varejao could have?

Ben: Nope. It doesn’t move the needle at all in the playoffs. Frye’s shooting might help a few times in the regular season against non-specified gameplans and mediocre teams. Frye is at his best as a stretch five. At this point of his career, he doesn’t have the wheels to stay with any off-the-dribble action in PnR or against slick handling PFs. He is decent defending the rim and his offensive stretch value is important. But in the playoffs? Not so much. He isn’t terrible in the post, but teams will be comfortable guarding him with a wing-player. If you are playing the Cavs, you would be thrilled to watch Cleveland waste possessions hunting for Frye mismatches on the block. He doesn’t make you pay on the offensive glass either. That eliminates his offensive stretch value to a large degree. It completely knocks him out of the game on the other end of the floor. If he isn’t guarding the other teams’ slowest guy, the Cavs are in trouble. He is simply unplayable in a potential Warriors series. The Cavs probably think he can steal some minutes when Bogut is on the floor, but it won’t make much difference. Channing would have more success against the Spurs, but that’s where Andy comes in. Andy defends Duncan and Aldridge as well as anyone. Throw Gasol in there too in a possible Bulls matchup. Even against the Warriors, Andy’s play-making and understanding of PnR defensive principle make him a better solution than Channing Frye. As Tom talked about in the pod, I sincerely hope I’m wrong.

Nate: Ask me this question on a night that Frye didn’t score 15 and grab six boards in 18 minutes. Once again, Tom’s phrasing is key. No, Frye won’t help the Cavs more than Andy could have (if Lue actually played him). Andy could have helped Cleveland a lot. But Frye’ll help The Cavs more than Andy would have, because Lue and the organization clearly didn’t have the confidence in Andy that I do.

So yeah, as a floor stretcher on a high IQ team who can play well with the other Cavs bigs, Frye will be helpful. He shoots 40% from three. The Cavs have two of the three best shooting bigs in the league now. I get the vision, but I fear that Frye doesn’t have the heart or the galvanizationalism of an Anderson Varejao. I hope I’m wrong, but I fear the Cavs will miss that at some crucial point in the season. They’ll also miss Andy’s screens, rebounding, intelligence and fire.

Cory: Almost certainly. With the addition of Frye they can always have a floor spacing big on court to open up driving lanes. He also provides Kevin Love insurance in two senses. Firstly, if Brad Stevens instructs Kelly Olynyk to “sweep the leg Johnny” again, the Cavs will still have a big who can be deadly from deep on the roster. That wasn’t the case a week ago. Secondly, Frye gives them the ability to move Kevin Love in the offseason, if they have to, without getting a stretch big in return. All things considering I thought it was a good trade. Andy had zero trade value.

David: The issue with Channing Frye is that he just shoots threes and can’t run a team’s offense. While Andy certainly wasn’t a one man offense, he could facilitate from the elbows and keep the ball moving. Andy’s ability to work from around the foul line actually makes him a great player to pair with Kevin Love. If Lue had made plays for the first unit featuring Love surveying the floor at the elbows, he could have slotted Andy at the elbow in the second unit almost seamlessly. Since Lue never implemented those types of plays, I guess Frye will help the team more than Andy would have. The Cavs can keep playing the way they want… with Love as the most overpaid stretch four in the league on some nights. Frye can then be an overpaid stretch four with reserve units.

Tom: I begrudgingly fixed all of Nate’s typos but I’m gonna leave ‘galvanizationalism’ in there.  I have the same take as Nate.  Channing Frye is going to help more than Andy because the Cavs are going to feature him in the rotation.  I think in general, having another floor spacing big when Kevin Love sits is more beneficial to the Cavs going forward than having Andy.  However, I think having players that can defend the pick and roll effectively is a prerequisite to not getting annihilated by the Warriors.  Andy’s still a decent pick and roll defender.  Not sure about Frye there.

4. Although it’s unlikely to happen, would you advocate for the Cavs to retire Varejao’s number 17?

Ben: I’m for it. I think Andy is probably only behind Price, Carr, Big Z, and LeBron on the “most beloved Cav” list. Andy was also one of most productive players in Cavs history, especially accounting for advance metrics. Between injuries and idiotic coaching(starting Gooden over Andy still riles me up), he didn’t get the minutes that his talent warranted, but Andy was the second best player during most of the LeBron 1.0 years. He’s a Cavalier legend.

Nate: UNLIKELY… UNLIKELY!? Why do you troll me so, Mr. Pestak!? If the organization doesn’t retire Andy’s number, they’re freaking morons. To answer this question, I point to Andy’s #Cavsrank ranking from two years ago, No. 9, meaning he’s more highly regarded than number retirees, Bingo Smith (#Cavsrank 17), Nate Thurmond (not #Cavsranked and only played for the Cavs from 70-72), and Hot Rod Williams (#Cavsrank 10, and whose jersey should have been retired). He’s the only Cav besides LeBron James and Z to play in the Cavs’ five playoff appearances from 2006-2010.

He’s fifth in history in rebounds, seventh in games played, eighth in steals, and while that’s not a lock, for sure, especially for a team with no rings, he’s also fifth in total rebound rate, fifth in offensive efficiency. Andy was a low usage catalyst his entire career, a guy who ten years later would have been an analytics based GM’s dream. But don’t take my word for it, take Andrew Schnitkey’s profile from two years ago.

Sure, there were Cavs who filled up box scores a lot more than Andy did. Especially in those playoff years. But Andy was always a player who was about something more than just what you saw in the scoring and rebounding columns. His value to this franchise to this day continues to exist in a fluid orb, unquantifiable by most known metrics. But to watch Anderson Varejao play basketball is about something pure, almost spiritual in nature.

That’s not to say it’s pretty. In fact, it’s quite the opposite, that tangled mess of hair and limbs, flailing about the court. Cavs fans had the pleasure of watching LeBron James play for seven seasons. So we know a thing or two about beauty. That’s not Andy. But there’s a primal energy to Andy’s game that gave Cavs fans something else unique to watch. There’s really never been another player, certainly not in a Cavs uniform anyway, quite like Varejao.

As Andrew noted, Andy doesn’t have great national accolades, his lone league recognition came in the form of an all-defensive second team nod in 2010. He doesn’t have the gaudy box scores (unless you look at plus/minus). He suffered through years and years of trade rumors, and yeah, he was wracked by injuries and the fear of those injuries probably led to his lack of playing time, and his Cleveland exodus. But I’ll let Andrew sum it up.

Through it all, Varejao has never complained. He’s never demanded a trade (that we know of, at least), he’s never sulked, he’s never been willing to give less than 100%. He has simply shown up, put his head down, and gone to work whenever his body would allow it…

It’s never been about accolades with The Wild Thing. It’s always been about the intangibles. So it’s fitting that there’s something intangible about figuring out where he belongs on a list of the greatest Cavaliers of all time.

The best we can do is to look beyond the numbers and instead focus on his relationship with the Cavaliers. I don’t just mean the team. It extends further than just the franchise itself. It’s about a relationship with the fans, with the community. Anderson Varejao has meant something profound to so many Cavs fans. There’s a genuine love between the two sides and a certain purity in all of it. Whatever the future holds for Andy, his time as a Cavalier will never, ever be forgotten. And for as long as it continues, it will be cherished by all of us to whom Anderson Varejao has meant something special.

Cory: I was against them retiring Z’s jersey, and I get that his canonization was part of wooing LeBron back to the point that they made sure that LeBron would be able to attend the ceremony. You can make a case that there’s a half dozen former Cavs who are more deserving to have their jersey retired than Vareajo. I liked Andy. I rooted for Andy. I legit think that Cavs fans would hate his guts if he didn’t have fun hair. He’s been paid $70 million, played in half of his games, and married a bombshell. I don’t feel bad for the guy. Talk of retiring his jersey is ridiculous.

David: I can’t justify retiring a guy’s number who struggled to stay on the floor and wasn’t always putting up great stats. Andy has averaged 7.6 points and 7.5 rebounds throughout his career. Statistically, his best two season stretch was from 2011 to 2013. He averaged 12.45 points, 12.95 rebounds, and 2.5 assists, while shooting 49% from the floor. He played 33.7 minutes a game those two seasons and was the lone bright spot on the team, aside from Kyrie. However, he played just 50 games during that two year stretch. If not for injuries throughout his career, Andy probably could have put together a strong argument to be in the rafters.

Tom: If I owned the team I would.  He’s spent a long time here and was a part of the most successful teams in franchise history.  And he’s a fan favorite. Isn’t that what the retired jerseys are for?  To salute the players that made us love the game?  According to Joe Tait, it’s a crime that World B. Free’s number isn’t retired.  If Dan Gilbert ever sells me the team for [checks savings account] $1548.21, I’ll raise World B., Andy, and Terrell Brandon into Cavalier immortality. (There’ll be a Cavs:TheBlog banner too)

Andy was always criminally underrated by the masses (and even by Cavs fans).  It’s a crime that he never got DPOY consideration.  Here’s John Hollinger in 2010:

Varejao has always been among the game’s best frontcourt defenders, but have you seen the guy this season? He’s moved beyond the Raggedy Andy flopfest of recent years to become a court-roving defensive monster. The shift in the game toward stretch 4s and pick-and-roll guards has only increased his value, as his freakish mobility for his size makes him one of the few players capable of both defending the post and smothering quick guards on switches.

A perfect example came against Portland on Jan. 10, with the Cavs nursing a six-point lead and less than four minutes left. Brandon Roy came off the pick-and-roll looking to explode to the rim, just like he’s done a thousand times before, but Varejao made the switch so quickly that Roy went right into his chest. Roy was stymied and stunned, dribbled the ball off his leg and out of bounds, and the Cavs were well on their way to leaving the building with a victory.

His value goes far deeper than one play, of course. According to basketballvalue.com, Varejao has the best adjusted defensive plus/minus in the league at minus-11.5 points per 100 possessions, which in rough terms means the Cavs are below average without him on the court and the best in the league when he’s on it. And unlike a lot of the Cavs’ plus/minus differences, this one wasn’t built on LeBron James’ coattails; Varejao spends much of his playing time with the second unit.

5. Give me your favorite Andy moment or how you will remember him?

Ben: LeBron’s 29 of the last 30 points 2007 Game 5 against the Pistons was probably the greatest moment to be a Cavs fan. It was the first time he was positively Jordanesque in his ascension to “best player alive.” The future seemed secure. The Cavaliers were going to win multiple championships with this superman. Lost in LeBron’s mastery was Andy’s spectacular defense. His late game block on Rasheed Wallace’s left baseline jumper helped secure that win. It is emblematic of Andy’s career. He could totally change games without people noticing in the boxscore. Beyond that, Andy was the only guy that I felt compelled to wish a good game before the 2009 Eastern Conference Finals. He simply said “thanks man”. Thank you, Andy. My favorite player of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHaSiWClteQ#t=6m22s

Nate: Stealing the ball from KG, going behind the back, and posterizing Garnett, in the prehistoric days before HDTV and YouTube. That and pissing off every NBA tough guy like Sheed and KG.

Cory: I genuinely regret that the stars weren’t aligned for his prime. If only he was the 2012 Andy in 2010 or before, things could have been different in so many ways. When I clear my mind through my own brand of om (a deep guttural sigh), and I think of Andy, I drift back to myself cringing every time he touched the ball during the 2007 Finals run. Would he bounce the ball off his foot? Would he just chuck up an flailing brick? Would he trip over his own feet? To his credit, he harnessed his bear balancing on a ball unpredictability into a refined skill set that a defense couldn’t anticipate what was coming next.

David: I don’t have a favorite Andy memory. It’s more the fact that I have never had to have memories of him. He has been a Cav longer than the King now. From the moment he landed on the team, he played at full speed 99.99% of the time. He never coasted. And, even when LeBron left, he still didn’t coast. He had career years. Yes, Andy has developed tremendously as a player, both offensively and defensively, through the years, but it has never been his offense or defense that made me love him. It has been his heart. His hair hasn’t stopped flopping for over a decade. He’s on the floor for any loose ball, at the rim for all rebounds, offensive and defensive, and running to defend a teammate no matter what. The Warriors are lucky. I can only hope their fans love Andy the way Cleveland fans did and hopefully still do.

Tom: I’ll never forget the game-winning put-back dunk over Chris Bosh.  I’ll remember him for getting under opposing players’ skin:  Sheed, KG, Ray Allen (remember the elbow to the nuts?)  He will always be one of my favorite players.