Podcast Episode 88: Losing Andy, Winning in OKC
2016-02-22http://soundcloud.com/ctb-5/podcast-episode-88-losing-andy
Before (or after) you listen to this pod, make sure you check out David Wood’s most excellent recap of yesterday’s Cavs win in Oklahoma City. After writing, David stepped into the broadcast booth with me and Tom Pestak and we talked about the crazy week it was: most of that craziness revolving around the trade deadline. We talked about the loss of Andy and what that could mean going forward (though the win in OKC was a good example of a best case scenario). We also talked about the Bulls and Thunder wins, J.R. Smith, Kevin Love, Chuck E. Cheese, basketball movies, and so much more.
We can be heard, above, on SoundCloud, or on iTunes.
[Editor’s Note: nomad – we are very proud of your team and glad to call you a CtB brother-in-arms. Here is a link of the story we were talking about when we were trying to find “the coach in the white suit”. And how much does Nate suck at Where’s Waldo?]
Also Anthony Davis is worlds better than Draymond Green Nate. Completely different class
Oh goodness, does Nate not think this?
Different players. I think Draymond is just as good and more consistent.
More consistent maybe.. Just as good its not even close
VIDEO: A reddit user set Dion Waiters’ lowlights to Celine Dion ’s ‘My Heart Will Go On’ ble.ac/1WEBbVD
Apparently Frye and Tobias Harris are cousins
As much as I hated the trade, I’m Happy for Frye and the team. Hope he has a lot of success here, and I’m glad the Cavs didn’t get a lemon.
Hope he plays well tonight.
Everyone needs to watch this. Dion’s performance yesterday set to Celine Dion song.
That was very funny. Hard to believe how many bricks DW laid that led to fast break pts for the Cavs. I forgot how bad JR twisted Waiters on that three too. Thank goodness he isn’t with the Cavs. That is certainly one player that doesn’t help connectivity.
According to @ChrisBHaynes – @Channing_Frye has passed his physical and will be in uniform versus the Pistons — Steve Kyler
Had to pause the podcast to respond…such good stuff so far guys! The Lebron at point guard IS absolutely, unequivically, without doubt our best chance at beating the Warriors. I don’t have enough time to go into why, but the non-turnover Lebron has a lot to do with it. There’s also the foul trouble he can force draymond into. And when iggy is on him, he is actually at his most lethal because when Lebron is creating/assisting, he plays with a Joy that he doesn’t get from low post scoring. He isn’t just good at passing, he LOVES to pass.… Read more »
I imagine Lue has to be giving the LeBron at the point against GS a ton of thought himself. Either out of necessity or strategy or both, Blatt figured out the slower pace was the only way to stay within striking distance of the Warriors last year. Would love to see LeBron run the offense against GS if that’s the Finals match up again. And as you said, I think LeBron likes that role, plus it would keep KI’s dribblemania to a minimum.
Hiatus over
1. I don’t think Nate has ever been to a Chuck E Cheese, they all had live performers. Plus it seems way too mainstream for him.
2. Everyone acts like the Andy trade was so baffling. They got a trade exception out of it so that next year at this time they can trade for something they need instead of being stuck. They used their trade exception to strengthen the team this year and I’m pretty sure Griffin will use it next year now too
3. White Men Can’t Jump is the best basketball movie of all time.
Got to level 76 in Gauntlet at a Chuck e. Cheese.
Also, white men can’t jump is good, but it’s no Hoop Dreams.
Here is the thing about the trade exception: its less useful than having the player. A TPE can not be combined with other players to make a trade. So the 9.7 mill exceptioin we now have means we can only trade for a player making 9.7 mill or less. By trading the player, however, we could combine him with another player, say mo williams, and could now take a player making 9.7 plus mo’s contract, 2.5 or so, plust an addtional 25% + 100k of those combined salaries. Which is kind of a big deal if you’re swinging for the… Read more »
JoeyB – you are all over this. Do you wanna write a guest post, basically taking what you’ve already said, and put it into narrative form and put a bow on it? if so, email me. thomas.pestak at gmail
But Andy contract WAS guaranteed for more than 9 million next year. No one was going to take that without inducement. I will agree that the TE isn’t that special. Many expire without being used.
Also I believe you CAN applaud DG for buying one year and selling another. Each year and team is different, and has different needs. It’s just like trading up or down in the draft. Some years you’re a buyer and some years a seller depending on your needs. On it’s own merit, the Andy part of the deal was probably the correct move in my opinion, but it’s no slam dunk. If the Frye move doesn’t go through or there are a couple big man injuries, then AV would be great to have around, especially instead of Sasha (I stole… Read more »
JoeyB great analysis. Most cogent one yet……and sadly it appears you are right.
That was a great movie, other than the fact that Woody Harrelson was cast as a white guy who can run with the top street ballers in LA. He might get to play in the all stoner league with Cols and the guy that got hit in Mahoning county.
I still have a ways to go in the podcast, but after listening so far… Unfortunately, when he signed his deal, Andy was a bit overpaid, but it was plausible because he gave LBJ some continuity in his return to Cleveland. But after a severe injury and signing TT and KLove to extensions, its really a lot of money to be paying for a guy who doesn’t get in a game that much. One way to look at this is that this may be part of accepting the reality that with GSW at historic levels, the Cavs are a long-shot,… Read more »
One good point you raise: we can’t fully evaluate the deal until we see if we get someone for Andy’s roster spot.
The strange piece of the Varejao saga for me was that we ultimately did not need to move him to get Frye. He was a straight salary dump essentially. That’s the part that I struggle with.
I love how generous Gilbert is, so its hard to critisize a dude for trying to save $20M on a player that is out of the rotation, but it was an odd time (and an odd player) to draw the line in the sand.
This is my stance on the Andy trade. If it was necessary to make us better, then we swallow hard and live with it. But it was a separate trade that not only was a pure salary dump, I truly think it hurt our team in three ways: 1. team chemistry and leadership 2. Emergency back up big who is smart, skilled around the hoop, and already has synergy with LBJ and KI 3. threw away a first round pick when we have little to no young talent Add in the fact that we also helped our biggest obstacle to… Read more »
I didn’t expect the Cavs to be making $ saving moves. That said, they’ve sort of earned the right to do that. Still very bummed they didn’t think Andy could help this season.
There’s money saving moves and there’s 40 Million dollar saving moves. For someone who’s not going to play. I get the chemistry a bit, but I’d say Champ is even more important as far as that goes. All I hear is how everyone swears by him as the go to guru guy on the Cav’s.
Yeah. All of your points are why I think this was a Gilbert move, not a Griff move. It’s tough. As you said, any player that the top 4 teams in the league are drooling to sign must have some value.
The only nuance I can think of is that it would have been hard to move him in the summer, and the need to sign Delly and potentially Moz would lead to insane luxury tax issues this summer. But that still seems a bit weak.
Well Nate seems to think getting that trade exception (kinda like renewing the Haywood one) was important to the Cavs. They could become a valuable asset. The Cavs draft so poorly I’d think that maybe it’s more valuable to have that TE than pick number 28.
A lot of teams should pursue Andy for the minimum and the Cav’s would have NEVER let him go over that amount. But there’s no team in the NBA that would spend 5 million on Andy to play this year let alone 40 million.
that’s a great point.
But it doesn’t answer the question – when Mozgov was struggling and coming back from surgery, and TT missed training camp, why didn’t Varejao play?
It didn’t make sense then, and I’m not convinced Channing Frye’s skillset is more useful on a team with Kevin Love than Andy’s.
Yea, I don’t really get that part either. I assume they saw something in practice that made them put him behind other options, but I would’ve liked to see him get some meaningful minutes in games, like 15-20 for a couple weeks.
As I recall from a recap on Cleveland.com, the Frye trade needed the Andy trade due to “over some cap level” issues.
My son has a Anderson Varejao bobblehead on his dashboard. He hit a pothead in Mahoning County & Andy’s head fell off and then the next day he is gone. Pretty weird!! lol
Omg I screwed up. I meant he hit a pothole not pothead.
Yeah, hitting a pothead would have been a lot worse for all involved.
LOL I am dying of laughter. Hilarious comment sequence
I thought you meant Cols there for a minute!
It wasn’t a Gilbert move or a Griff move. An ODOT move!
Your son hit a pothead? Was it Cols?
lololololololololol
That’s the part that kills me, too. Regardless of the on-court implications, its the principal of the matter: a GM who talks about the need for “team connectedness” jettisons a player who is immediately offered jobs by the only two teams with better records than our own, while we still have two open roster spots, one of which will be mandatory to fill soon (likely by a D-Leaguer on a tiny contract), all just to save money for the owner who trumpets the “spare no expense” mantra. It just all feels very grimy and makes me like the DG’s a… Read more »
Or, if you want to look at the on-court stuff – Andy could help defend the PnR against the Warriors death lineup.
I’m no expert but I believe Andy through age and injury, especially this last one, has lost a step or two. I don’t think there’s any way he can stick with Dray or Steph on PnR’s.
We shall see, and I hope he does well.
Pretty much feel the same way, although I think the move was required for some reason. But we had better get some good run from Frye.
“ANDY VAREJAO SHOULD’VE TAKEN OUR FEELINGS & INSECURITIES INTO ACCOUNT BEFORE DECIDING WHERE TO WORK AFTER WE DITCHED HIM!”-CLETwitter #Cavs — Mike Polk, Jr.
Dave McMenamin
ESPN Staff Writer:
The Cavs have until Tuesday for Channing Frye to pass his physical before the trade with Orlando would be voided. A source tells ESPN the team is “not concerned” about tests taking longer than usual to complete, but also “not in a rush” as of Monday afternoon, meaning there is still a chance Frye will not be in the lineup Monday night for the Cavs’ game against Detroit.
Nate expressed exactly how I felt about Andy PERFECTLY!. From the bizarre remarks from David Griffin to the point he signed with the Warriors. You brought up the Herculoids and isn’t ironic how they are all on the Warriors team now (exception Ellington) ? Andy absolutely was the glue to this team as well as the bridge from old Cavalier players to new. Some memories I have is him arguing with then Rookie Tristan Thompson. Tristan was like the “Odie” in Garfield (the Cat cartoon) TT was an uncoordinated rookie that often forgot Andy was on the same team going… Read more »
I’m not a jersey guy. But if I did, I would get a AV and Delly jersey.
Any concern about Frye’s health? It seems unusual to me that he has not yet completed his physical. It has been four, full days since he was traded. Other players traded the same day have already played for their new teams.
He’s in a different situation though. Because of his issue with his enlarged heart, the process takes longer. Sounds like he should be cleared to play tomorrow.
OK, I’m sorry about my Andy comments. I don’t meean to make everyone mad, but I really dislike the whole “you have to love Andy” stuff when looking at it objectively the guy has barely contributed since 2010 or so.
I will not comment about him anymore, but please spare me the whole loyalty thing.
As long as you put on your dunce cap and stand in the corner, we should be all set.
Checkmark. I will take a 12 hour hiatus.
I’m just messing with you man.
Let’s Tar and Feather him at Sundown!
I can’t speak for everyone, but I’m not insisting that you love Andy. Just let the rest of us love him without imploring us to stop. He obviously connected with the fanbase in some meaningful way during his time here, even if you don’t see it the same way.
Cols displays many deeply narcissistic traits–i think many of his comments are just about riling up others to bring attention to himself. In other words, he seems to be expressing often legit views in hyperbolic ways to make the entire discussion board center around him.
I am no psychologist, but maybe you have something there Entman.
I have always felt its best to view Cols714 as an allegorical character intentionally created by the “true” Cols to play the important role on this (sometimes overly pessimistic) blog of representing the truly, loyal, optimistic Cleveland fan. As one of those types of fans, I LOVE the role Cols plays, and have come to appreciate the humor in his intentional absurdity. GO CAVS. “Writers use allegory to add different layers of meanings to their works. Allegory makes their stories and characters multidimensional, so that they stand for something larger in meaning than what they literally stand for. Allegory allows… Read more »
so you think Cols is like a couple levels deep with this? I’m skeptical. My view of Cols is: One of my best friends (Wes) once told me that Wilson Chandler was a future MVP candidate. And that Colin Kapernick was going to change the NFL forever. He’s actually a very smart dude and almost always wins our fantasy leagues. People get stuff wrong. WAY WRONG. All the time. Cols gets stuff wrong. We get stuff wrong. Sometimes you think Cols is insane and he’s actually right. I loved the Anthony Bennett pick. It’s more about the discussion and the… Read more »
But now I like Delly because he’s finally the player everyone thought he was when he wasn’t good. I get the Finals podium game but the dude shot like 20% during that Finals, which is horrible. But now, he lost weight. His shot is quicker. He learned how to dribble a bit better. And he somehow developed a floater that is maybe the ugliest shot in the world but it goes in just enough to make people wonder if he’ll float it or oop it. It surprised me that he was at this age able to improve so dramatically, but… Read more »
Nope. As always, I will deny the Delly bs “lost weight” argument. It’s nonsense.
I don’t mean to be harsh, but Cols just doesn’t understand team 5 on 5 basketball very well. He likes one-on-one ball and has even said he would prefer a Kobe vs Bron one-on-one to anything else.
He wants the All-Star game to be standard.
No need to elaborate further after my previous sentence.
Are you going to like Andy if he plays a big role in defeating the Cavs in the finals?
Love that comment, Tom. Definitely about the discussion and camraderie. Terrific.
And, yes, I DO think Cols is a couple levels deep with this. Cols, do you agree? You have to admit that (at least sometimes) you intentionally take extreme positions in an attempt to philosophically counter what you believe to be too much pessimism.
I agree. I think Cols714 is a character Cols has created. He probably agrees with most of Cols714 takes but there is no way he’s read this blog this long and still doesn’t understand effects of defense and passing. Cols714 hasn’t always been the most optimistic person either. During the pre-Wiggins lottery he was kind of negative. He was convinced getting Lebron back was impossible and several people here thought he would.
If you have ever read Endors game I kind of picture Cols as Endors brother sometimes but no where near as smart
“One of my best friends (Wes) once told me that Wilson Chandler was a future MVP candidate. And that Colin Kapernick was going to change the NFL forever.” ONCE. As in one time. Uno. Opposite of ad nauseum with extremely unpopular and untrue takes again and again all the time. With no proof and no reasoning to his posts other than to say NOPE or YEP. Product of a dim witted fellow who’s had a bit too much weed in his lifetime. Hahahaha. Maybe I can repeat this same thing ad nauseaum after every single one of his posts. Hahahahaha.… Read more »
I have a great time at beer camp, the Cavs have two blowout wins and make a great trade to get Frye and another great trade to get a trade exception for trash and I come home expecting wine and roses and love and all we get is complaints because an old guy who didn’t play much or well when he did play got traded.
Even though the team is better now than it was before the trade deadline?
Well, nobody says you need to stay here. Nobody says you would be welcomed back with roses and whatever. Maybe you can be welcomed back as the piece of trash that you say other people are. That sound fair?
I disagree with Cols as much as anyone, but please try to keep our comment board civil. Cols has an opinion, he expresses it, but he doesn’t trash fellow commenters or tell people to leave. We’re an inclusive lot here, which means putting up at times with folks I Strongly disagree with. He’s trying to get a reaction out of you and succeeding. I’ve learned to stop making that mistake.
Nate, your second-to-last sentence is the textbook definition of an internet troll. I’m just tired of watching him troll the fanbase of the team he supposedly follows and then having everyone “aw shucks” his comments away. He has referred ti AV as “trash” several times now, hasn’t he crossed some sort of line?
No, that’s not crossing a line.
It’s idiotic, but not out of bounds by any stretch.
And look, everyone is coming out of the woodwork to defend Andy’s honor and shun Cols. It’s not like he poisoned people’s minds into hating Andy.
Cols, you live in Colorado now, but I’m curious as to whether you’ve ever lived in NE Ohio. Why can’t you understand that fans of a team can develop emotional attachments to players who have been with the team for over a decade?
Cols hates players like Andy: “No-stats all-stars” is the phrase often used. Hustle and positioning and boxing out and below-the-rim finishes…. To praise that is blasphemy. He worships at the alter of talent and traditional box score stats.
I think a lot of people would have said that Larry Hughes was garbage. But Larry Hughes’ box score stats could be viewed by some (people like Cols) as superior to guys like Andy and Delly.
What is beer camp? Do you make beer, drink beer, or both?
Or, play beer-pong?
Anyone know if Frye has actually passed his physical yet? Kind of doubt he plays tonight.
Still NO according to Baskins and Phelps on the Fan 92.3
Getting more than bit concerning. Wonder if the Cavs knew about the enlarged heart before the trade? Andy had a big heart and that didn’t need any medical evaluation.
I believe he was actually treated at the Cleveland Clinic back in 2012. Jeff Green had the same issue.
They knew. He missed an entire season after he was first diagnosed with it (2012-13).
So if he doesn’t pass his physical, Andy is still gone and the Cavs then end up with 3 empty roster spots and their 2nd round pick from 2020. That would be a disaster
All thanks to GM of the decade, the bestest GM in all the world who can never do no wrong.
So according to Jason Lloyd, Frye should clear his physical by the Tuesday deadline. So he’s probably not playing tonight.
Heard Bull saying on 92.3 that if Frye doesn’t pass the physical, the trade is void and we get Cunningham back. Not Andy though because the trade with the Blazers was a separate trade.
Seriously, Griffin trades trash for a good player, then gets us another trade exception and people are going to complain because an injured old big guy who can no longer help us is gone?
Are you really a Cavs fan? You might as well be back in the LeBron 1 era calling Big Z trash because he wasn’t in his prime anymore.
Sure, Andy was on a bad contract. But would it kill you to show some respect?
I’m with Cols on this one (did that just happen?). Why are we morally obligated to ‘respect’ Anderson Varejao? We all loved his game, but he’s not Mother Theresa. Same guy who held out till December some years ago to get more $ right? Same guy who’s cashing $30MM in paychecks and absolutely could have just sat out the rest of this season but decided to go play for the greatest nemesis of all of his fans? Griff did the right thing with AV (overpaid him for past services with a big contract), then had to burn a first rounder… Read more »
How can you begrudge him a shot at a ring? He’s not obligated to sit out.
What are you talking about? Is he supposed to go play for the 76ers. You’ve got some messed up reasoning.
Speaking of trash……
can you please just go away?
Andy has sucked for the last 3-5 years. He has barely played. The team they traded him to immediately cut him because he’s nearly unplayable.
The Andy love fest has to stop. It’s disgusting.
Yeah then a championship contender picked him up. Smh….
If he’s on the court that team is a lot worse. He sucks. He could barely run, he couldn’t jump, his defense was atrocious. The only thing he’s got going for him anymore is the elbow jumper.
We paid him $30M to sit on the bench and sulk. Good riddance, IMO. Griffin picked up a better player and traded away an almost unplayable guy for a trade exception.
Griffin rules.
His defense sucks? I guess the numbers lie then. When was Andy sulking? I think you’re confusing him with Mo. Seems like you’re just making stuff up about Andy because he’s a Euro type of player.
I don’t about “sucks”, but he’s a shell of the player he was pre-Achilles injury. The Cavs dumped him because they already have two players who can only play the 5 (Moz and Kaun) and he wasn’t providing any floor spacing for the money he was costing. He is going to play the role of 5th big on the GS and probably piss off half of Cle with his semi-solid play. That being said, Frye is a very Griffin move because he “fits”. The Cavs now have two bigs who can stretch the floor and probably didn’t give up much… Read more »
I thought it was a great move too. The issue the Cavs have had with their bigs is spacing without Love on the court. It should give them more flexibility going forward with personnel too.
Yep. Griffin is so great.
his defense was atrocious. The only thing he’s got going for him anymore is the elbow jumper. Well cols – the numbers don’t bear this out. In 310 minutes this season: -The Cavs had a defensive rating of 96 with Varejao on the court. Best on the team by a lot (Shump next at 99). -The Cavs were +7.6 with Varejao on the court. That’s better than their team average (6.3). -Opponents only averaged 18.4 assists per game when Varejao was on the court. (lowest number on team) -Opponent Points in the Paint when Varejao was on the court was… Read more »
Thank you, tom. Lots of people have a narrative on Andy which simply doesn’t match the truth. The only thing he did below average was elbow jumpers, which will drop in GS. If the smartest team in the league is willing to take big cap implications to sign him, they might be a better judge of talent than Cols.
A……nd cue complete and total silence from Cols until a future post where he will re-iterate that
1. Andy Sucks
2. Lebron is great
3. Griffin is the bestest GM that has ever lived.
Facts and stats mean nothing to the pothead. Why do you try?
Exactly. He never responds to a compelling statistical argument
And if you think Andy’s defense sucks. Then Frye must be the worst defender in the league.
Hope he throws the game ball to you when the Warriors win the title.
Cols you discredited yourself for good in my view, when you called Any “trash” before departing for your beer fest. A lifer Cav who always gave his best doesn’t deserve that and I suggest you temper your vulgar descriptions. Same for Eurogenious. Grow up a bit regardless of how old you are in real life.
Beer camp. Not beer fest. And OK, I will temper my descriptions
Sucked for 3-5 years? Completely ignorant statement. Open your eyes.
Cols, you are banished to the children’s table for a week!
Good pod as usual. A little awkward with the level of Andy-love (got scared when the cardboard cutout came up) but I get it . . . the guy is a folk hero.
TOM! We gotta play some Rocket League. (SirDawkins on Steam)
on it. You’ll like my name.
Friend invite sent….
Wait there’s a C:TB Rocket League? Pls add me – “Mayo The Condiment” on Steam
Invite sent
Great cast.
I wasn’t a fan of Dion and was mightily relieved when he was traded, but i felt really sorry for him last night. Dude couldn’t buy a decent play for love or money.
And while it may have extended the podcast to extraordinary lengths, I also thought that the NOMAD stalking sequence was one of the most enjoyable I’ve listened to.