Podcast Episode 85: Pace and Love
2016-02-01https://soundcloud.com/ctb-5/ctb-podcast-episode85-pace
For everyone expecting podcast episode 84, we realized we did episode 80 twice, and the sticklers for accuracy that we are, we figured we’d better renumber correctly. This is a 34-12 team we’re covering after all. In that spirit, Ben, EvilGenius, and I decided to span 6000 miles in one podcast to talk some Cavaliers. On the docket: the Spurs victory; Kyrie Irving, two guard; Kevin Love’s best two game stretch in a Cavs uni; the Pistons game; Irving’s defense; Richard Jefferson as the new James Jones; Popovich, mad scientist; All-Star snubs; the Blake Griffin situation; trade talk; Atlanta’s uniforms; The Dellavemovie; dubbing the Cavs’ big three; and so much more…
Listen above above, on Soundcloud, or on iTunes.
Really agree with Ben that it’s hard to take much away from that game. (Although it was a good and much needed win) kind of a weird game, and I think at some point Pop was just looking at stuff. Their zone didn’t seem to kill penetration, so I’m not sure what they were trying to accomplish. It’s amazing to me how Love’s shots seem to act as such a barometer for this team. If he’s hot from three, the Cavs look like a machine, and usually win easily, but if he’s 0-5, or whatever, it just seems to grind… Read more »
Cleveland has bit of history to compete against tonight. Cavs have not beaten Pacers at their place in 6 years. Last time was Jan 29, 2010. — Chris Haynes
C:tb’s favorite radio personality is talking about the Cavs player team meeting. I won’t post any live updates regarding it.
Cool. Thanks!!
http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-cavaliers/cleveland-cavaliers-1.275356/ty-lue-happy-to-take-a-seat-while-coaching-focuses-on-3-point-shot-when-judging-defense-1.658891
Interesting Lloyd piece on Lue and his defense in regard to the new pace of the offense.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14690965/cleveland-cavaliers-finding-success-holding-players-only-meeting
James Jones is the best. Player only meeting. This and the Lue hiring were just genius moves by Griffin.
Lol, Cols genius moves. I don’t doubt the moves were necessary. If Lebron doesn’t want you as coach and you don’t have Dwade there to tell him to listen up you get fired. I mean thats just the rules of the Game. But everyone is over-reacting to how much of this is just pieces coming to together and feeling better about a guy they didn’t like being gone. That goes away after a month. If Lue can get these guys playing defense again like they were under Blatt and keep this offense then its a genius move. But just getting… Read more »
We fired our GM because he had no idea how to build a team.
And he traded a #1 pick for a two month rental of Deng. And lots more.
That pick becomes a second rounder is Sacremento finishes in the bottom 10 I think
I strongly agree with this. Is this just a collective snort of cocaine or something more meaningful? I hope the latter. Did Lue institute a new offense in two days? No way. Can he outsmart Pop or the Warriors in a seven game chess match? We don’t know. Will the clearing-the-air team meeting lead to long lasting team building or will nagging issues resurface and halt progress. Will the Dynamic Trio and supporting cast unite to slay the Cleveland Sports Dragon? Stay tuned for our next exciting chapter…
So is Griffin a USA-Genius?
I was kind of thinking maybe GingerGenius…
Better alliteration…..
It’s looking like it. Just look at these moves 1. Traded away a bunch of garbage to get enough cap room for LeBron 2. Signed LeBron 3. Traded away Wiggins plus garbage to get Kevin Love, a top PF who is still young and who wanted to play with Leb. Wiggins meanwhile, looks like Tyreke Evans part two 4. Hires two really smart coaches, thinking that the experience of Blatt would translate to the NBA, but if it didn’t he had Lue waiting 5. Trades garbage plus two late first round picks to get Smith, Shump, and Moz. 6, Convinces… Read more »
A two year old would have pulled off 1-3. 4.1 was on Gilbert. I think the real genius is in 5 but then again Lebron signed off on Smith. 6, okay but I think the Love-Lebron meeting did that. 7…we’ll see.
Yes but is he an EvilGenius?
That’s a hard bar to reach… /s
Note that the source said “this should have happened weeks ago.” Meaning, before we caused Blatt to get fired. This is what we have been upset about it. Blatt v. Lue is not the issue. Its that the players refused to do what they needed to do. They didn’t suddenly come together because of respect for Lue over Blatt. They came together, allegedly, because of respect for one another and a decision to be more accountable. Lue had nothing to do with it.
Sometime someone will realize that we landed the 3rd best player in 2013 draft. I mean thats not great when you have the #1 overall pick but its not bad
That’s one of the things that makes sports interesting. I love analytics, but these spectacular misses (by everyone, in both directions) make it surprising and fun.
So, looking at the 2103 draft, I see the Greek Freak. I’m assuming you’re saying Delly is #3. Who is #2?
The French freak…. Gobert. So it goes the Greek Freak, the French Freak, the Aussie Freak………….. #600 The Care Bear Freak.
McCollum, Schruder, Olynyk, Oladipo, Steven Adams, even Otto Porter possibly go higher than Delly in a redraft.
Probably McCollum but not Shroeder. Olynyk has done nothing yet. Still all potential. Oladipo is a bum, and Porter was in the d-league till this season. I’m what does he do that makes you think he’ll stick?
Thats pretty harsh Rodney Mac. Porter was not good last year but he is coming along. He is pretty good on D. Top 20 steals and Top 3 ST/TO. Olynyk has the highest PER on the Celts. The Hawks must be confident in Schroeder or they wouldn’t be considering releasing Teague. I don’t know if I’d put those guys over Delly but they aren’t junk.
Griffin wrote that Windy/Lowe article didn’t he. “The Cavs lost their first game to the Chicago Bulls, scoring just 83 points. But the mood in the locker room after the disappointing loss was more upbeat than following a quality home win over the Los Angeles Clippers 48 hours earlier.”
I don’t see why you doubt this. If you worked for someone you didn’t like or respect, getting rid of them helps the mood tremendously.
I don’t doubt the mood change. I’m just saying this is what Griffin said in his presser after the firing.
The article attributes the improved mood mainly to the players-only meeting where they cleared the air about lots of things — including calling LeBron out on his loafing.
Why isn’t KLOVE an all-star, A-Z podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/nba-to-z-sam-amick-jeff-zillgitt/id972191863?mt=2#episodeGuid=tag%3Asoundcloud%2C2010%3Atracks%2F244828730
If the stats say our “pace” is not faster, what is behind our averaging 115pts/gm recently? If the answer is our efficiency is better, then what is behind that? Sure seems like a “Lue effect” in some way.
We are getting into our offense much much faster than we used to. And the team is moving way more than they did. Lue has been great so far.
Isn’t it that we’re getting the ball past midcourt faster? That leaves us more time on the shot clock to work with, without necessarily impacting “pace”.
Both comments seem to say the same thing. Walking the ball upcourt (something KI and Mo did a lot) is being discouraged. I agree, good things are happening since Lue took over.
Nate, I think that your fat argument holds no water.
Haha Of course it doesn’t. Dude goes by his feelings and narrative instead of facts and what actually happens.
I know you are, but what am I?
I need to do more research on body fat and athletic performance. Suffice it to say that one can definitely be too thin. But hydration is not necessarily a great symptom of that.
http://www.mensfitness.com/weight-loss/15-negative-effects-having-low-body-fat-percentage/slide/1
Thanks for the link. It’s fantastic! My youngest son is athletic. He is obsessed with weightlifting and body fat. I will tell you he himself pulled a Dellavedova before a important track meet . He is very lean to begin with and I would estimate his body fat to be in the 5% range +/- He over consumed high energy and caffeinated drinks before 4 relays he was to do. After the 4×1 and 4 x2, 4x 4 he collapsed due to severe dehydration. That stuff makes you piss like a race horse. It took him 4 days to recover.… Read more »
A Carmelo for Griffin trade would be sweet for the Knicks. Maybe they sweeten it by taking on Stevenson. And is Derrick Williams a trade asset? He has a PER of 18 on a 4 million dollar contract. Is that real someone explain when that happened? Is he just a good PF when sitting next to a strech and would be terrible on the Clippers. What about throwing in Affalo? I know they have Reddick but maybe he plays sf and Melo plays PF.
That’s some kind of PER loophole. Can’t shoot 3s. Shoots FTs at a Lebron avg. Maybe it is overvaluing his 4 RPG (17 mpg).
Derrick Williams is a good athlete with useful skills. Its all about using him in a properly defined role. Completely different players, but similar to TT: If he is your best player, you suck. But used properly, he can add tons of value.
Very nice podcast. Thank You. On the jersey pulling. Why not go Ezekiel Elliott ? Have players tuck their shirt above their midriff? That would be interesting and comical
Betteryet, just go shirtless.
LMAO We might see a lot of hairy pudgy bellies that we thought was possible.
The Raptors beat the Spurs, smoked the Clippers, and nearly beat the Warriors. I think your commentary was a little poor on that. But they still can’t beat the Cavs.
We were mainly discussing their current win streak… but I’ll play along…
Yes, they beat the Spurs by 3 in Toronto… with Kahwi under the weather with gastroentiritis…
Yes, they smoked the Clippers in Toronto… minus Blake…
Yes, they nearly beat the Warriors at home, but came up short.
None of us said that the Raps weren’t a good team, just not a team that can beat the Cavs… Actually, I thought we spent an inordinate amount of time praising Kyle Lowry… so what was so poor about the commentary?
I just thought saying they hadn’t beaten anybody was dumb since they have beat the Spurs and argueably have better wins then the Cavs (except the fact the Cavs smoked them). But if you were talking about the win streak thats different. Hinestly I didn’t realize Lowry was as good as you guys thought.
No problem… I was referring specifically to their current win streak… The Raps are better than I thought they’d be, but still not as good as some people are professing them to be… They could very well be the #2 seed, but I don’t see them beating the Cavs in a series…
And Lowry is really good… probably the best two-way PG in the East…
Rock Paper Scissors. That’s why seedings, match ups and luck also play a role on the outcome.
Not for the Cavs. The Cavs could get the 8th seed in the East and would still make the Finals. No one in the east is close. Just have to beat the Warriors in the Finals.
Agree. We could play all 7 games on the road each series and still make it.
While playing in bare feet…..
And after all players having taken a double dose of Viagra before the game……
That usually leads to worn out shorts.
We could all of a sudden play OKC in the finals. Which I think a “paper” to our “scissors”. Point stand still. .
Also Draymond Green being the third best player in the league is asssine. Just for a second imagine what last years finals would have looked like if you switched Lebron and Green. Lmao. Guy is a great roll player. A star even. But The guy can’t carry a team. He makes good players better and I’d love to have him on the Cavs over Tristan Thompson. But Lebron James???
Yep. Nate just does not know how to identify who is good in the NBA.
On that point, I agree with you… I still have an aftertaste of bile that I choked up when Nate said it… ;)
You need to push back harder when he says ridiculous things like that.
That’s like saying I need to push back harder when you trash Blatt or Delly… ;)
Ha. The Delly thing is funny. The dude sucked for 2 years then suddenly he turned into a good player. Good for him. Great for the Cavs.
Blatt though, I don’t get why everyone went on a rampage when that guy was fired. Eurogenius did not translate to NBAgneius quite yet.
He has a very nice rookie season. At gotBuckets we made him our ROY. Last year after his injury he struggled for a long time. Then he earned podium games in the playoffs and even the finals. He’s been outstanding this year, second on the Cavs in NET Plus Minus (important distinction over plus/minus) behind LeBron.
Maybe you only paid attention to Delly when he was struggling. But he had a nice rookie campaign.
Cols, when did he stop sucking? Last year reg season? Finals? A week ago?
THis year. He improved every aspect of his game. He had one good Finals game and was terrible the rest of the time. But this year he’s managed to improve
1. His conditioning
2. His shot, faster release
3. He can dribble without hunching over and backing his way up court
4. He has a somehwat reliable floater
5. His defense is better
Every freaking thing he couldn’t do last year he can do this year. Plus he’s playing more minutes without breaking down like last year.
Cols, you are the Donald Trump of C:tb.
Dave, he was one of the best rookies in terms of helping his team when he was on the court. He was BY FAR the best sophomore in last year’s playoffs. The simple fact was that Delly was far ahead of the player development curve,outstanding for anyone, let alone an undrafted free agent.
I know Nate. I was trolling a troll. The CtB needs a sarcasm checkbox next to the Submit Comment button. It would help everyone including me lately.
The dude sucked compared to veterans. But for a rookie he was outstanding his rookie year. Probably the 2nd best player that year after the Greek. His second year he still managed to contribute dispite injuries and tons more pressure. Now in his 3rd year he’s establishing himself a viable starter and 6moy candidate
Actually, he’s at second right now. LeBron just edged ahead of Kawhi this week. I think I need to do a weekly ranking.
You should do an hourly rating.
You don’t think that would be too much?
Love the observations about Kyrie into more iso instead of pick and roll, or PnR with Love, who can Pop out. Kyrie is a good passer, but better at hitting cutters once he gets into the paint. Or maybe it’s just that its easier for a cutter than a roll man, who gets just as faked out as Kyrie’s defender. The pace “seems” faster, even if the numbers don’t agree. I think confidence will be up if the Cavs are scoring 110 / game and its easier for Big Whatever to hit 20/20/20. Spurs didn’t play the Cavs tough, for… Read more »
The Mills on Lebron thing made no sense. So are we saying that Pop rope-a-doped us by using lineups/matchups that we wouldn’t see in the Finals?
If that’s true then I’m not really sure why. It would have been more psyche-breaking for the Spurs to just beat the Cavs at home like GSW did.
If Pop was rope-a-doping… then he should be fired… /s
I don’t think Pop Rope-a-doped the Warriors or the Cavs. They lost both games. You’re not going to win every game. If their two worst losses of the season are road games where Tim Duncan didn’t play and the opponents shot the lights out (that J.R. smith shot to the end quarter probably made Pop smile) then you tip your cap. The Spurs are so great because they have an identity and are the model of consistency. It doesn’t mean their ceiling is higher than the Warriors (or Cavs). I think Pop went to zone because the Cavs were running… Read more »
Concur. The Cavs pushing the ball hard in transition later in the game kept the Spurs down by 10. You’d think if they walked it up per usual the Spurs could have gained momentum.
Yep. Tom is correct.
Cols doesn’t like players and coaches that don’t look the traditional part. Delly didn’t look the part, with his awkward looking jumper and hustling defense, so Cols hated him. Blatt doesn’t look the part of a traditional NBA coach, coming from the Euroleague, so he hated him. For someone that seems to have these open minded liberal values, you come across as pretty close minded and opposed to any sort of progressive thinking. When the team wins it’s all LeBron. When they lose it’s Blatts fault. I’m sure if the Cavs lose the NBA finals, or heck, don’t even make… Read more »
Nope. I just hate that everyone is crowning Blatt as some supergenius coach when he clearly didn’t have any stature in that lockeroom. Coaching isn’t just about writing good plays, it’s about managing egos and rotations and keeping players in line. Clearly Blatt couldn’t handle any of that. And it’s not necessairly his fault! He had no NBA experience at all. He needs to be an assistant for a year or two and then maybe he will become a pretty good coach, but for now he was clearly in the average to below realm. Lue seems to bring the xs… Read more »
You are really the only one that continues to bring up Blatt over this past week. I think most of us have moved on. For some reason you see it as necessary to slam him as this awful coach every chance you get. I think the situation is more complex than Blatt not being able to relate to the players on this team. We don’t really know why the relationship didn’t work with Blatt and the players. I think it’s probably fair to say it’s on both Blatt and the players, but again we weren’t there and do not know… Read more »
No. No one is crowning Blatt with anything. In fact even on high profile wins most of us stil finds something to critique his coaching decisions. Just like you said it’s not necessarily the man’s fault. And in that alley we come in. Clearly the whole team (read: Lebron) didn’t really bought in not just on Blatt but to the whole concept of being there for everyone, reaching out on everyone, and on unity to achieve the one and only goal. And also I think no one here is harping anymore about what Blatt did, you just keep bringing it… Read more »
The Delly Movie? Sign me and Cols up.
Can we please stop saying Blatt was a good coach? He may have been a EuroGenius, but he hasn’t shown he can translate those skills to the NBA.
So his playoff run last season didn’t mean anything to you?
Yeah because being up 2-1 at some point in the finals is all Lebron
Yep. LeBron took over those games.
Troll harder Cols.
And btw. Lebron sucked on the succeeding games that’s why we lost. Deal with it..
That’s a bit unfair to Lebron. He clearly didn’t suck.
Step up your sarcasm game Dave.. ;)
Yeah I assumed the /s but the whole “Deal with it” hooked me. Well played
I think you’re way too far in the other direction on Blatt, Cols… here’s a scenario for you (using one of your touted coaches as an example)… The only difference between Eric Spolstra and David Blatt is the presence of Pat Riley. They had virtually identical experiences in their first years with LBJ and a “big three” and Blatt even had the detriment of losing two of his three by the Finals. They also had similar year two’s with LBJ record wise, but Spo had the Sockless Curmudgeon backing him up and saying “deal with it” to LBJ, whereas Blatt… Read more »
Except Spoelstra hadn’t completely lost the lockerroom and was able to get LBJ to buy in. LBJ gave Blatt a chance and Blatt told him he wasn’t a rookie coach and that his first win wasn’t worth celebrating. Also, he wasn’t happy that people thought it was cool that Obama came to the game becuase insecure Blatt had played in front of other dignitatries.
I’m not saying Blatt can’t be a successful coach. I think he needs to be an assistant and learn how to deal with NBA players first. He was clearly in over his head.
Is it really worth sharing opinions on a guy as black and white as this EG? I commend Cols for being down with this character from day 1 but it gets annoying at times. Anyway..
The difference on those scenarios I think is Lebron hasn’t won anything at that point. He has everything to lose if that stint didn’t pan out to a title. He needs to fall in line. Pat and Wade legacies are secured no matter what. The bestie choice for him is to buy in.
It’s a bar of consistency we can all measure our comments against.
I enjoy the challenge… and the back and forth anyway…
Same here. But what’s the point of the challenge when nothing’s gonna change the perspective of the guy the way he sees everything. Don’t say that you just love competing without gaining results. Even more once we raise a banner..
Not true… he changed his perspective on Delly…
That’s an outlier EG…… ;)
I don’t know that Cols is “down with character from day 1”.
Cols used to offer on the money, insightful commentary 10% of the time, and craziness 90% of the time. Lately he is up to 30% – 70% or so.
Cols and Arch arguing is a good illustration of what is called a “race condition” in computer science.
Good troll job Raoul!
The first season (six episodes) of “The Detectorists” is available on NetFlix. The last episode has a scene where two characters are insisting on being the last to call the other a “Wanker”. It is a lot like the Cols/Arch debate on Blatt. “The Detectorists”, created by and features Mackenzie Crook, who was a major part of the original British version of “The Office”, is the funniest thing I have seen in years. It is in the grand tradition of likable goofy characters, with a British twist. I can’t wait for the next season to get to Netflix. Check it… Read more »
Did you just play the “race condition” card, Raoul… ;)
So where exactly to you fit into this name calling?
Well to be fair he’s being insightful with Delly this year…… /s Idgaf actually. It’s just hits me sometimes to even bother a sound opinion to a commenter who clearly had a close mind combined with the level of craziness he’s showing. Not to brag, I give insightful commentary as much as I can. I play on Cols comments at times admittedly but still reply with a sound mind most of the time. Why waste time just to be stupid right? He might be just trolling us all this time and laughing behind the keyboard but oh well. bottom line… Read more »
In fairness… I’m usually laughing most of the time I’m behind my keyboard posting and commenting on this board because the interaction tickles me… nothing wrong with that. I enjoy it because it’s (almost always) in good fun…
Spo actually had more overt issues with LBJ… and there was plenty of turmoil in that Heat locker room. The difference is simply Riley who had a fist full of rings on his side, and refused to let the players dictate who the coach was going to be…
How do you lose the locker room and have #1 seed? Not buying.
I think the bigger difference was Wade. LeBron respected Wade way more than Riley or Spoelstra. And Wade got LeBron to buy in. Wade also helped LeBron being the dual leader of that team. There isn’t anyone to that level on the Cavs. James Jones seems like a pretty solid leader/locker room guy, but he is nowhere the player Wade is/was.
Wade certainly helped, but Riley was the guy who was the championship ring svengali for LBJ…
Not according to Windhorst. He said that the whole Riley thing didn’t really matter to LeBron. It had pretty much everything to do with Wade.
And Windy has been right exactly what percentage of the time?
Well if you shoot 40% from the 3-point line that is considered a good thing right?
What I think is that LBJ and his inner circle would never really admit (especially now) to how much he was taken in by Riley’s oily charisma… so why not construct the more digestible click-bait fluff of the Wade angle for Windy to devour like so much cotton candy…
I don’t believe Windy. Even Wade got some altercations with Spo. Some prior to the season of the Big Three. Riles pushed all the right buttons on that first 3 year span. He ride heavily on the fact that the huge amount of blame will be on the players if they didn’t get it done because of all the spectacle that surrounds their union. And the hate won’t go off specially towards Lebron. It’s easier for him at that time cause he got all the rings compared to the situation now with Griffin and co.
I believe Windy mentioned this in the recent Lowe Post. So it wasn’t promoted as an article, but just one of many things discussed. Take a listen to get further context.
Top things Windy was wrong about . 1.. Kyrie is hating Cleveland and he is not resigning 2. No way is Lebron coming back to Cleveland. I believe he even called Broussard names that he was irresponsible. lol 3. (Last year) Love is not happy and wants to become a Laker It’s not so much the stories were completely wrong that offends us as it was in the way he does it. He can be really mean spirited in his writings and taunts Cav fans to his delight. Best example of that imo was the Kyrie story. He went over… Read more »
“The David Blatt of Point Guards”…awesome!
That was my favorite line of the pod…
Listening now Left at 28th min. I had to laugh at the comment of Lue waving his arms to get Kyrie to pick up the pace. I immediately went into a time warp of Mike Brown doing the exact thing and actually running down the sidelines yelling at him to run. I was worried he would have a heart attack. Seems Kyrie has just a bad habit of reverting back to strolling the ball down court . But if you do have both Kyrie and Delly together, the ball movement is much faster. I really do like those line-ups as… Read more »
No. Kawhi is not the best player in the NBA. No Braymond is not #3. Neither of those guys have shown they can carry a team. Please stop this garbage.
Second, after Curry. If Bron dethrones him, he can take it back.
1. Curry
2. James
3. Durant
4. Westbrook
5. Leonard
Agree about the Braymond comment… as mentioned, I did throw up in my mouth a little… ;)
But in terms of “team impact” he’s top 10 definitely.
That’s probably true… but I was reacting more to Nate saying he was better than Bron and a top three player…
Yep. Nate has a hard time (actually, he just can’t do it for some reason) distinguishing between a player who plays well within a system and a guy who is awesome at basketball no matter what system. So he thinks that Braymond (great nickname BW) is better than he actually is. Same with Leonard. Both are great at what they do, but they are not the stars that the teams revolve around.
Nate also has a nasty habit of considering the defensive end when ranking players. How dare he!
Oh FYI my internet sucks right now so I’m just basing on comments and didn’t really listen to the pod. :)
7.3 APG for a PF. I’d say that’s definitely some team impact.
Doesn’t hurt to have one of the best shooters in NBA history on the receiving end of about half of those…
Thats how you go from 1 to 3 to 7 APG in 3 years! But still he does it and it helps.
I approved it.
Thanks, I’m not sure what triggered that. Maybe my fingers pounding the keyboard too hard.
The comment monster has a case of the Mondays.
Igh. No thone Raptors are not a threat at all. Come in Nate. You are better than this.
Listening now. I will agree that the whole narrative where the Spurs game and the 4 dame streak didn’t mean much is insane. At the very least it matters as much as the GSW blowout. We had weeks of commentary on the GSW loss (possibly trading each of the big 3 for peanuts) but the win was poo-poo’d within a day.
So the Cavs won because they wanted the game more than the Spurs…but clearly they didn’t want a win at home vs GSW? Interesting.
Your last paragraph is spot on.
Right, so if you believe that then both the GSW loss and the Spurs wins are equal and not be overreacted upon as mentioned in paragraph 1. But clearly that was not what happened.
Whats the deal with “your comment is awaiting moderation”?
I think it gets flagged if you put certain language in it or multiple urls. I’ll look.
It was a rebuttal to what you said but I definitely didn’t put links or curse words in.
Comment on Kawhi’s 3 pt percentage. 92% of his made 3’s are assisted. As comparison, Chris Paul is 33%, Westbrook is 35%, Lillard is 48%, Harden is 50%, LBJ 58%, Curry 59%, Durant 62%, Paul George 68%.
So, basically, Leonard is getting a lot more spot-up looks than other “stars.” He has been great, but he really is just a spot up shooter, which helps his percentage.
Yep. And he cannot even come close to stopping LeBron. Leonard is overrated this year. A great player but not top 5 in he league like some think
More Kawhi: 80% of his 3’s are catch and shoot. He shoots 51% on those. On all other threes shooting 36%.
By comparison, even Delly only gets 69% of his threes as spot ups. Kawhi’s 3 numbers.
At the other extrem, Steph only shoots 48% of his 3s as spot ups.
So you argument is that he isn’t as good of a player because he moves without the ball and takes smarter shots than other guys…
Uh, ok.
No. My argument is that he is one of the better players in the league who executes his role at an incredibly high-level. But that his role is relatively small compare to other players who he is routinely compared to.
The stats I provided are evidence about the size of his role, not evidence that other players are better.
Also, in the Pod, you discusssed a bit about how Kawhi has the highest 3pt % in the league. The stats above provide important context for that outcome.
Ok. I put words in your mouth because I thought you were providing evidence to support Cols’ point. Apologies.
So your analysis is based against ayers with outsized usage rates? Also, you’re discounting defense. He is by far the best defensive wing on the NBA in a league where defensive wings are an extreme rarity (as opposed to defensive bigs).
Well 100% of Kevin Love’s 3’s are assisted, so I guess he can’t be a ‘star’ either.
No one is saying Leonard isn’t a star. Just that his usage is so low that he’s not a top 5 player in the game. He’s not a take over the game guy which is what you need to be to be considered in that tier.
Yeah. I love Kawhi. Top 15 player. I just don’t think he is a top 5 player.
Oh I do. Maybe the best defensive player in the league and he’s shooting 50/50/88 which, you can put as many asterisks as you want by it – I don’t care if he’s alone in the gym…..that’s insane shooting. He’s second to Steph in Win Shares and Win Shares/48. If his usage was higher his shooting percentages would probably drop a bit. But they’re so freaking high they’d still be out of this world for a guy who is known to most people as a top tier defensive player. As Nate said in the podcast, he got the quietest 21… Read more »
I have presented two pieces of evidence that undermine your key arguments. So I can only assume that you give little weight to that evidence, which is fine. First – His high shooting numbers are a function of the fact that he is not required to shoot hard shots at the same rate as other great players. This isn’t because he is somehow “efficient.” It’s because he doesn’t have the skill set to do what some of the other great players do, so Pop limits his offense to 1) post ups against smaller guys, and 2) spot up shots. Also,… Read more »
Yep Hot Sauce you are correct.
Hot Sauce, who are the other great players you are comparing Leonard too?
Just because he plays well within POPS system, doesn’t mean he wouldn’t do similarly well in other systems. I’m also pretty sure that most players 3P% drops when they are not spotting up. It’s an accomplishment to get open too. It’s not just about shooting with Leonard, it’s his all around game. He might be the best 2-way player in the league. And I don’t care what attempts are spot up or not, 50/50/90 is an incredible feat. Something only a handful of players have accomplished.
You don’t get the reputation of being one of the (if not the) best defensive player in the league from 2 games. You also don’t lose it from 2 games. So I’m not sure how strong that evidence is that he’s not individually great defensively. He didn’t really guard Steph much. And LeBron and Steph are going to light up just about everyone. Leonard has a turnaround J that is gorgeous. Being able to shoot off the catch is a skill because you have to work hard to get open. He’s leading the league in 3P%. It’s not like he’s… Read more »
Can’t listen to the podcast right now but my vote goes to “The Land Lords” as of now. That’s a good one.
Oh no. The first 15 minutes discuss how the Spurs win doesn’t really count. Ugh.
I remember that being your opinion of the Warriors game.
LOL Cols got roasted!
Truest thing ever written on this blog. Thanks, Nate.
I think my voice must register at a frequency you can’t hear…
You are the voice of reason on these things, Nate is a downer. He sounds like he hates life.
I don’t think that’s true… I think Nate is a realist and doesn’t want to go overboard on one win. He keeps things in perspective, which is what you should do when analyzing sports teams… I just felt like this win warranted more praise given the circumstances… but then again I self-admittedly still see things a little more through wine and gold colored glasses…
He sees things through his nose.
The nose of truth.
Yes! You discussed the “pace” myth. Good stuff.
Nicknames: How about the Star Wars-inspired Kylo Bron?
I like the play on words… but not sure about the connotation…