The Point Four-ward: Is This The Real Kyrie Irving?
2014-12-03
Four points I’m thinking about the NBA and the Cleveland Cavaliers…
Pre-point: If you haven’t checked out David Wood’s recap of last night’s Cavs/Bucks game yet… GO. NOW.
1.) Saturday night’s game against the Indiana Pacers was my favorite Kyrie Irving game in a very long time. I, like many Cavs fans, had become a little calloused to the wiles of some of Irving’s more obvious skills on the basketball court, because — as we were reminded again and again last season — what Irving did well did not seem to translate into winning basketball. He dominated the ball. He’d pout when things got tough or didn’t go his way. He played defense so poorly most of the time that he actually became the opposing team’s sixth man on the floor on offense. There were feuds and buddy ball and a whole lotta stuff coming from Number 2 that were key factors in the grueling slog that was the #SesasonOfHuh (promotional non-sequitur: look for the e-book/paperback that is the definitive guide to all things Huh with writing by some of the most talented and beautiful Cavs bloggers around coming very soon… for serious… GET EXCITED!).
All of this made me enjoy Irving — an undeniably talented ballplayer — just a little bit of a lot less.
But, much like the Grinch of this holiday season, while watching Irving’s performance against the Pacers — and, really, most of his play during this the three game streak the Cavs capped with Saturday’s win — my heart grew two sizes that day.
He passed without dribbling! He nailed a three-pointer! He scored off the dribble, with wizoozits and trumblers!
And, of course, Irving played some very good defense against Donald Sloan. Cavs fans can only hope that this winning streak is giving them a glimpse of what Irving can become as player and, what’s more, what he wants to become.
2.) Well… then some Brandon Knight happened on a Tuesday night. The Milwaukee Bucks point guard led his team with 27 points and eight assists. Now, give credit to Knight, who is having a nice year for the better-than-expected Bucks. In his second season with the club after his original team, the Detroit Pistons, quickly cut ties with their 2011 draft pick (a draft, Cavs fans might remember, in which he competed with Irving for “best point guard available” honors”), Knight is averaging 17.5 points per game on a career best 44.3% shooting from the field and 41.2% from three. And at 6-3, Knight has the length to give Irving some problems.
Irving wasn’t the primary defender on all of Knight’s 10 field goals, but two of Knight’s three-pointers came on open looks with Irving clearly not fighting through a pick as tenaciously as he had in the past few games.
While Irving has been playing better overall D, it should be noted that, of Irving’s opponents during his defensive “awakening,” Knight was the first one who was a truly dangerous outside shooter. Many things can be said about John Wall, but that is not one of them. Same for Sloan.
So, yes, there is still some room for Irving to improve as a defender, but he’s already exceeded many people’s preseason expectations by showing that, when he’s dialed in, he can give above average effort on that end, but that effort must consistently be there. He’s not scaring anyone with his mere presence just yet.
Irving did have another great game scoring the ball on Tuesday. And, like Saturday, I was able to enjoy that.
3.) How about that Cavaliers bench, folks?
On Tuesday, Milwaukee’s bench outscored Cleveland’s by 13 (25-12). Indiana’s crew mobbed Cleveland’s line on the pine 52-16! Even Washington’s bench cleanly outperformed the wine and gold by 12 — and that was in a 26 point Cavaliers victory where David Blatt road his bench for almost the entire fourth quarter.
A big part of the bench’s production was supposed to come from Dion Waiters but, save for Mike Miller’s one-game resurrection, the problem with the bench goes beyond Waiters. Why did the Cavs lose their big first-quarter lead against the Pacers on Saturday? It’s because Lou Amundson took three shots in that quarter!
Okay, that’s not the entire reason the Cavs lost the lead, but when Amundson bunnies are the best result of your offensive sets, there’s a problem. It’s basically inviting the other team to go on a six or seven point run against you.
Blatt’s recent reliance on Amundson as a key reserve (that is, until last night when Amundson didn’t play at all) makes some sense. He’s a mobile big man who can play solid, active D and doesn’t slow the team down when it tries to push the pace as would, say, turning to Brendan Haywood. But what it really does is point out what a glaring need another big man is for this Cavs team.
The bench looks to get a shot in the arm as soon as next Monday with Matthew Dellavedova returning to action. Delly will help the reserves, for sure, but it’s unrealistic to expect him to chip in much scoring to those recent lop-sided bench numbers. So, where can the Cavs find more scoring?
Well…
Tristan Thompson works so well playing with Irving and LeBron James, but he’s not a player who can create his own shot. Anderson Varejao has become a very good offensive player. He wasn’t always but, as Jason Lloyd of the Akron Beacon Journal wrote in his post-game notes last night:
There is no doubt Varejao’s looks have been wiiiiiiide open because of the guys he’s playing with, but he’s been a consistent mid-range shooter since Byron Scott came to town and encouraged him to start shooting. If he could get that shot off playing alongside Manny Harris, Christian Eyenga and Samardo Samuels, he can get it off here.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s time to see what Thompson can do with the starters and ride a bench rotation of Dellavedova, Waiters, Miller, Varejao and (sigh) Amundson for a while. Playing with Varejao might also help wake up…
Well…
4.) I promised myself I wouldn’t pile on Dion this week… soooooo, I’ll just leave it at that.
It’s funny that we’d all like to have Nerlens Noel on this team, and that could have happened if the Cavs would have drafted him instead of Bennett. Granted, they would have taken a ton of flack at the time because they were in “make the playoffs now” mode going into that season and Nerlens was going to have to miss the entire year with his injury. Hindsight being 20/20, I wonder if the Cavs would still have been able to pull off the KLove deal with Wiggins and Waiters instead of Bennett. Waiters is probably the better player, but… Read more »
I agree with the DW sentiment above. My caution is how to arrive at real market value. Currently griffin won’t have any leverage based on dion’s play. Buried on the bench just makes his asset value go lower. Silver might veto a trade to philly as further evidence of front office tanking there. Dieng is my hope considering pekovic is ahead of him. Plus dieng is a more mature player. Sadly I bet john Henson in Milwaukee gets traded to Cleveland for that trade exemption. He might help but now only dion can help. His leverage might be lackluster play… Read more »
I’m hoping the return of Delly, and maybe Andy to the bench helps him out. I think he could be pretty effective in a Delly, Dion, Andy, Love, Marion lineup. I seem to recall him being pretty effective playing in 4 small one big lineups last year with Delly and Andy. That would be similar but with better defense and rebounding.
that is a good point. i read (i think fear the sword) that an in shape miller would be starting 2 guard to facilitate your lineup above when the meaningful rotations begin in the 3 and 4th quarters.
Trade the Philly kid to Philly for Nerlens Noel. Philly will pair him up with Michael Carter Williams. We get a future rim protecting, near all star center on a rookie contract.
One might say that Noel could be injury prone, but Dion Waiters isn’t without his warts. It’s riskly both ways, but a worthwhile risk both ways.
Rodney, I love it. That would a great secondary lineup.
i would love this trade. i doubt adam silver would though. the other GM’s would positively throw a fit. personally i think it is a fair trade both ways. the money works and helps to solve the eventual logjam in philly’s frontcourt going forward but not now. i think philly would be crazy not to take the okafor kid from duke if they were to get the top pick. imagine their frontcourt of Noel, Embiid, Saric and Okafor. there wouldnt be enough minutes for all 4 but trading Noel for a scorer would help in the future, just not now.
Dion is 100% on the way out – no question in my mind. His skill set is redundant on this team. What does he do that a half-decent backup PG can’t do? How does whatever that skill is cause his value on the time to be higher than Dion as a trade chip for a center?
My bet? You’ll see him, plus a pick, flipped for a pretty good center.
I hate to say it, but I could see this happening. Especially if Miller gets more minutes and plays well. With Miller, Harris, and Delly as floor-spacing guards that don’t require time on-the-ball to be successful, it gets harder to justify carving out minutes for Neon Dion when he is shooting so poorly.
The challenge is his trade value can’t be super high right now.
Yeah, I think he’s on the way out too. It’s sad though. I think he can still be a pretty good player if he was in the right situation. I’m guessing they get back a wing.
But wait! Why would they need a wing? Isn’t that spot reserved for your personal hero and savior Ray Allen???
An athletic wing or defensive-minded center would be nice. I’d prefer Dion to get it together and stay here, but same time I’d like to see him succeed and at this point he might have a better career being the alpha dog on another team.
Who do you think they can get at this point for Dion though? Nate would probably say Mozgov. It would be good for both sides if they could trade him for Nerlens (so Dion could go home to Philly and Cavs get a potential rim protector). The untouchables: Davis, Cousins, Aldridge, Bosh, M Gasol, P Gasol, Noah, Ibaka, Howard, Drummond, Duncan, Lopez, Gortat, Jordan, Chandler Maybe an outside chance: Horford, Hibbert, Jefferson, Monroe, Sanders (but would you really want any of those guys other than Horford?) More likely: Mozgov, Favors, Morris, Hill, Noel, Pekovic, Wright, Frye, E Davis Wish they… Read more »
Anyone but Hibbert or Sanders. Locker room cancers who can’t play offense we do not need.
I don’t think we should be setting our sights so high regarding this trade talk. There is simply no way the Cavs are bringing in another max- or near-max-level contract player from another team, even if that’s what Dion could net us. Think about how much money even B level players are getting paid in today’s NBA landscape. There is also the issue of getting all these players minutes during games. There really isn’t any room on the Cavs’ roster for another A- or B-level player. If we trade Dion it will likely be to acquire depth and bolster the… Read more »
Agree he is playing so poorly it’s almost to the point he has to turn it around on the Cavs before they can deal him. I don’t see a trade involving any middle tier C right now. And I too wish they had added him to the Love deal (my hindsight is 20/20 insight from a few days ago).
Again I wish Lebron clued the Cavs in on coming to Cleveland. I’m sure Griffin/Gilbert could have kept a secret (okay no one can in today’s media driven world). Zeller is looking very valuable for the Cavs bench right now.
Just to be clear, I’m FOR keeping Waiters. I like the route of home-grown continuity for my team. But if he’s traded for some nice pieces that help us out, it is what it is.
Zeller — oh, what could have been…..
Zeller? What could have been? If we don’t make that trade to clear cap space, what most likely would’ve happened is we don’t get James. That was a great trade by Griffin.
I check on Zeller from time to time. He hasn’t distinguished himself in Boston. Not getting many minutes. Generally tops out at six points and three fouls. He’d get no minutes here the way Blatt sticks with starters. Nelens Noel makes sense . . . and he’s about the only guy that makes sense to me. Get a guy on a rookie contract. Philly might love to pair the home grown kid with Michael Carter Williams. Otherwise, you all are shooting way, way, way too low for him. You trade B- & C players for B- & C players. There’s… Read more »
I don’t think the sights are so high (maybe Mallory’s are). The “more likely” category from above are not exactly A level guys. But agree it might wind up being a couple of lower level guys if they can get a serviceable big man and maybe a defensive wing off the bench.
Noel would be perfect on this team and he’ll be cheap for several years.
“Wish they would have just included Dion for Gorgui Dieng in the Wiggins for Love deal. Oh well.”
What does this even mean? Wishcasting about trades assuming you could’ve made a better deal?
Right, Cols, because YOU of all people should be accusing people of being irrational. Maybe you’re just lashing out.
Don’t think I said ANYTHING about assuming I could have made a better deal. There was some talk during the Love/Wiggins moratorium about whether or not the Cavs could have gotten Dieng as well because he’s a promising big man. It probably would have taken an additional piece like Waiters. That’s all I meant by it.
I think maybe you’ve been breathing in too much Rocky Mountain air pal.
And by the way, since you’ve opened the door to petulant nit-picking… “wishcasting” is not an actual word. Unless you meant it as Urban Dictionary defines it, which really makes no sense.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wishcasting
Don’t forget Byombo. Nate made a convincing case a while back. If Charlotte keeps losing, I think he could be had for the Bogans exception.
Yuck. Another big guy who can’t shoot? Pass.
We already have the best big guy who can shoot (Love). We could use a lengthy big guy who can defend (Byombo).
Nope. No one dimensional guys. Except Nerlens. That I would like.
Hard to argue with logic like “nope.”
NO one dimensional guys at all? When did ray allen fall off your xmas wishlist?
He might be going, but what in the heck is: “His skill set is redundant on this team.”? If they were redundant, maybe that means he plays like KI? I wish he was. The problem is, he is playing lousy. The Cavs need MORE guys who can play quality minutes, not less. There is a reasonable chance they can get his head right and be a major contributor. Right now, when he is stinking up the gym, his trade value is as low as possible, so it is the worst time to trade him. It is unrealistic to expect the… Read more »
The issue is that he needs to be a spot-up shooter or a lock-down D guy to add value to this team. We don’t need another ball handler unless that handler gets the ball to the right places for easy looks. Dion has been passing so it’s clear he’s trying to fit but it might be a square peg-round hole situation. I’ve been a big fan of his from the start, but I don’t like the direction he’s headed.
Maybe having Delly back will restore some order to the second unit. Dion played pretty well with him last year.
I have been beating the drum of LBJ suffering an unexplained, sudden lack of explosiveness this year. I just did some digging, and the results below are striking!!
Dunks Per Game
2012 – 1.89
2013 – 1.75
2014 – 1.00
FG% on 2’s
2012 – .602
2013 – .622
2014 – .507
FG% on 2’s from 0-3 feet
2012 – .776
2013 – .796
2014 – .686
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
I think the 2014 numbers are too small of a sample size yet to make this comparison. And his FG% went up from 2012-2013
Sample size is small. But not that small. We have played 1/5th of the season.
The increase in FG% from 2012-2013 makes the 2014 drop off more alarming. As of last year, no one thought he was slowing down. He was just continuing to get more efficient. That is why I think age is not the explanation. He has to be injured. He has mentioned his back multiple times.
I put a lot of this on team chemistry. That Miami team was a well oiled machine and everyone knew their roles and where everyone else was going to be on the court. Cavs should and will get there. They still have to adjust to each other. How they look now is different than a month ago and will be better going forward, LeBron included.
Yeah. This is a fair point. Will be interesting to see where it shakes out by year end. The “eye test” suggests some physical component as well.
Hot Sauce, I’m too lazy to do it myself but it would be interesting to compare those same categories except looking at only the #’s through the first couple months of the 2013/12 seasons. Maybe LeBron plays his way into better shape as the year goes on. Otherwise the dropoff is indeed alarming.
I can’t get break downs of these particular statistics by game within a season. But a perusal of more standard statistics indicates LBJ performs pretty consistently before/after the All-Star break.
Good stuff Sauce.
Care to add TOs per game to that list? Maybe steals & blocks as well (defensive effort)?
Things not to worry about:
1. Leb
2. Love
3. Irving
4. Andy
5. Marion
6. Thompson, he has looked so much better now that he isn’t attempting to shoot past 10 feet.
Things that should actually concern people:
1. Dion, he just does not look good right now
2. The rest of the bench.
3. Injuries, if Leb or Love goes down we are in a bit of trouble
Things not to be concerned about because they won’t change:
1. Cols ever being objective
2. Cols ever giving up his belief that Ray Allen will fix everything
3. Cols ever learning the true meaning of the words “panic” and “worry”
I know I can’t be the only one who CAN’T WAIT for the #SeasonOfHuh e-book!! I hope that’s real and not a cruel tease Robert!
Absolutely real. Scroll to bottom of this article:
Soooo pumped for this!!
I totally agree. Scotch. LBJ has some serious rust. Lots of uncharacteristic turnovers and bad decisions on breaks. Part of this I think is due to his loss of explosiveness. In the past, he didn’t really have to think so much on the break – he just exploded by everyone. Now he is playing more of a Magic Johnson role, looking to distribute rather than just explode. He will figure it out, but its definitely a different LeBron.
Too bad they traded Wiggins. He could have helped LBJ recapture some of his explosiveness (sorry Hot Sauce, just couldn’t resist)
LOL. You do agree he is less explosive, no? Or do you think I am crazy?
I do agree that he’s less explosive to a point. He’s shown flashes and there’s a reason he was named EC POW last week. But as I posted in the previous thread, he’s not only a few weeks from being 30, but also getting used to his new body and new teammates. He’s not going to be as explosive as he was when he was in his mid-20s during his last stint as a Cav. He’ll still be awesome, but father time makes us all a little less awesome each day.
Yeah. I totally agree he won’t be where he was in his mid-20’s. He is going to be less explosive, and even with that he is the best player in the league.
But when I watch his highlights from just 6 months ago (playoffs), he just is not making the same kind of explosive plays at the rim. So I think there is some type of lingering injury thing happening. It can’t all be age.
I see what you’re saying, but other than the minor back issues, he hasn’t talked about injury of any sort. Could just be him beginning to adapt his game as he gets older. LBJ seems to me to be an athlete who is inherently in tune with his body and it’s capabilities. He’s also one of the smartest players on the court. I’m not concerned about the explosiveness really because he’ll always find a way to score or distribute. The only thing that’s odd to me is his fumbling of the ball occasionally when not being guarded. That speaks more… Read more »
Check out my new comment below. Interesting stats on explosiveness.
Guess what? LeBron gets one year older each year, just like everyone else. The main thing is how he tops out in the playoffs, not if he can act like he is 23 in November and December.
I agree that Lebron looks rusty, but I think it has to do with the personnel changes. He’s turning the ball over more because he’s not on the same page with some of the guys. I actually predict he’ll regain explosiveness as the team develops its chemistry. You can’t go 100% on the break when you’re not 100% sure what your teammates are doing.
Lebron has officially forgotten how to handle the ball. He just can’t seem to dribble the ball on the break. That’s the first thing to go when you haven’t played for a while…so I think it’s safe to say he didn’t practice as much as usual over the summer. He could use a primer for Kyrie…and could really use about a year’s worth of practice running the break w matrix before he ever should be leading our guys on the break. He is still a great finisher…dude just can’t seem to feel the ball. What are we gonna do if… Read more »
Leb didn’t suddenly forget how to play basketball. In the words of Aaron Rodgers, RELAX. Leb will be fine. No more panic please..
Well…um…I’m not. But he actually has seemingly forgotten a couple things. Namely, how to effectively run a fast break with teammates, and how to dribble in traffic. Watch some tape of his turnovers. A good two thirds have come from those two problems.
Sorry Scotch, I tried to educate Cols on the proper usage of the word “panic” on last night’s thread, but it takes a while for things to stick with him.
I think Cols is on Kyrie’s learning curve. We should see improvement by year 4.
That being said….over the course of the young season, I think Kyrie has by far given the most consistent effort of the big three this year, on both sides of the court. I too am hoping that this is the leap we all expected to see last year.
Keep it up, Uncle Drew. Show them youngbloodz.
Of course, he was last week’s EC Player of the Week, so while he may still be rounding into shape and getting used to his new body and teammates, he is still a formidable talent and one of the best players in the league. For what it’s worth.
If he didn’t practice over the summer (I agree, it seems like he didn’t, wanted a break before the hoopla of cavs and also from playing basketball for 105 games for 4 straight years and to give his back a rest) and that is the reason for his poor dribbling form, why would you expect it to still be this bad at the end of the year after practicing for 6 months?
I’m not overly worried about this, and I was at that spurs game where he dribbled off his foot.
I think you are being harsh on Kyrie’s D. The big picture is that he is consistently trying harder than anyone on the team night in and night out. There are so many talented PGs in this league, so Kyrie’s guy is going to explode occassionally. But that doesn’t mean Kyrie has regressed, or that we should pick apart each moment when he makes a mistake. If that is the standard, we should have 2 page post every game on LBJ’s mixed effort and mental mistakes every game. In my eyes Kyrie has really reached another level. He is a… Read more »
Agreed. Kyrie is not a problem on defense anymore.
Agree with this also. He’s not a lock-down defender by any means, but his D has massively improved lately. The effort is there, even if the results aren’t always.
The effort is there and more importantly the ability is there. Kyrie has the athleticism and quickness required to be an average to slightly above defender. It’s all about commitment and building those habits now so come playoff time when Kyrie is dialed in and focused he can be an effective defender.
Agree. Kyrie has made a major improvement so far this season. Let’s hope he makes a lot more improvement, right on up to #1 PG level.
Same for everyone else on the team.
I said this during the summer but now I have no doubts: Kyrie is the 2nd best player on the Cavs. Not K-Love.
Yep. 100% agree with you.
Totally agree. Kyrie has been on a tear to start the year, and his defense, while not good, is light years ahead of where it was last year. Very impressive leap year so far, hopefully he keeps it up!
The one thing I would say in defense of Kyrie’s defense last night was that there was no interior D to speak of. Once Knight got past Kyrie it was straight to the cup. Its hard to body up a guy if you know any mistake is a layup. And once you start sagging off him it opens up the three ball. But props to Knight, he looked tremendous. And Parker too. That Bucks (Sonics) team looks to have the makings of a contender (for a deep-ish playoff run) in the not too distant future.
Before anyone loses their mind praising the Bucks, take a look at who they’ve played. They’ve already faced the lowly Pistons three times and lost one of those games. They have a quality win at home against Memphis (by one point) and one at Miami. They’ve got a pretty rough month ahead so let’s see where they are at the beginning of 2015. Decent young team on the rise, but not a contender for a few years IMHO.
Is it really that difficult for Blatt to make sure at least one of the Big 3 is on the floor at all times? Waiters and Love playing together more would be nice. Otherwise, playing Waiters with the scrubs and then asking them to emulate the Spurs’ offense is not cutting it.
*apologies to Anderson Varejao for lumping him in with the scrubs
Yeah, that shouldn’t be hard. We really should also stop trying to emulate the space and pace Heat and Spurs attacks. This team should really be shooting the first good shot they get instead of overpassing trying to get a great shot. That works for the Heat, but here it usually leads to too much passing and a bad shot as the shot clock winds down.
This has to be one of the dumbest comments. You do realize when they pass more they win more?
Actually he is quite right. Typically good quick passes early can create open shots before the defense gets set. I think you misunderstood Cols. He is simply stating that over passing, or passing up good early shots, can lead to bad heaves late in the clock.
Yes. Exactly this. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
Okay well I suppose overpassing for late bail out shots is not a good thing. But creating space for the offense to operate effectively is how this team should play. And I’d rather overpass than underpass, which often leads to overdribbling and chucking up late bail out swag 3s off the backboard.
Neither over passing or over dribbling are desired its all about finding that balance. Moving the ball is a great way to create mismatches and keep the defense off balanced and floundering. We also have three of the greatest offensive talents in the league who create inherent mismatches soley by existing. All three of our Big 3 can usually exploit their defender in single coverage. Although it is imperative to move the ball and keep every one involved. Do not forget sometimes our greatest weapon is our players abilities to create their own shots. I’m certainly not clamoring for only… Read more »
And getting into quick offense is often a part of getting defensive stops so they can run the ball. If they cannot do this, they then play into a half-court style of play which requires more passing and moving to get the match up that works best.
Have you seen any of his other comments in the last few months? This particular comment isn’t even top ten of dumbness.
Glad we finally agree on something, Cols… I think you’re on the money here.
If the goal is to win as many regular season games as possible, sure, that would be a good strategy. But in the playoffs when Lebron, Kyrie, and Love will all be playing 40 minutes, its good that they all play a lot of minutes with each other early and often. If you stagger them now so that one is always on the floor, there won’t be a lot of time for all 3 to be on the floor together. We’re winning the east even without homecourt, and we’re unlikely at this juncture to get home court against the west… Read more »
There is truth to everything you just said but at the same time every player on the team should be learning how to play with each other. As you said, these guys aren’t going to play 48 minutes in a playoff game so the reserve unit still needs to be in top shape just like the starting squad. If ever there was a time to tinker with lineups, it is now in December. You can also make the case for Dion being one of the top 4 or 5 players on the Cavs right now but that doesn’t mean he… Read more »