“The old Cavs, obviously, were built around James, with players who were brought in because of the way their games complemented his. He was the supernova, the hub of the wheel, the raison d’etre. Without him, Cleveland is a shadow of its former championship-contending self, the nightmare scenario come true for a city that walked on eggshells for seven seasons — an expensive, old shell with no great player around which to build. There is Mo Williams, and Anderson Varejao, and third-year forward J.J. Hickson, and a lot of question marks.” [David Aldridge on Cavs]
“What the Cavs wanted to scream at the TV and have been seething about privately all during the Vegas Summer League is how could they when James himself had them shackled to the short term.” [Brian Windhorst on LeBron the FA Magnet]
“There’s no way, with hindsight, I would’ve ever called up Larry [Bird], called up Magic [Johnson] and said, ‘Hey, look, let’s get together and play on one team,’” Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada. The interview aired on the NBC telecast of the event. “But that’s … things are different. I can’t say that’s a bad thing. It’s an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys.” [Michael Jordan on LeBron James]
Henry Abbott wonders out loud how LeBron James is now the player most people “love to hate”. Seems pretty obvious – he USED to have a legion of Ohioans by his side. Not anymore.
D Wade compares the media coverage of a couple of reg season “South Beach” losses to the WTC terrorist attacks. Smart.
Erin Phelps shares her feelings as a transplanted Cavs fan.
“The Man” is being used in all different contexts. Bryant Gumbel’s take.
Check out http://www.outtatownclowns.wordpress.com, a great read on the possibility of Ramon Sessions heading to Cleveland in a swap.
I’m sorry, but that Bryant Gumbel piece is absolutely ludicrous. The ONLY thing that matters to the media is titles, it’s the sole judge of a player’s worth in the eyes of many. People still get away with saying Kobe Bryant is the best player alive despite hundreds of games indicating the opposite, because his team wins titles.
And to say that Ewing and Barkley and Marino are still respected despite their lack of titles? COME ON. The fact that they didn’t win a title is in the first line of their sports obituary. No one forgives a great player when they don’t win titles, especially when they’re as talented as LeBron.
The hypocrisy that the media has shown through this whole debacle has been shocking. I am not a fan of the way LeBron handled his exit. The Decision was callous, ill-advised, and inappropriate. But the way media-types are concocting new ways to vilify his actions is CRAZY.
The funny thing is, despite everything the media have been saying and stirring up the last week or so, Lebron was only the most unpopular sportsperson in that poll by 8%: His 33% to Kobe’s 25%.
I noticed that too, Isaac. If this is to be LeBron’s low-point in his career in terms of popularity, it’s not THAT low of a point. I’m sure any poll taken after Kobe’s Colorado incident would’ve looked a lot more grim.
@James and Isaac:
Although, in comparing the two, I would argue that LeBron’s fall in popularity has been even more dramatic than Kobe’s was. LeBron went from being the most popular player in the NBA, by what seemed to be a fairly wide margin, to now the most hated.
Even before the whole rape thing, Kobe was never the most popular player in the sport. In fact, there were many that already despised him.
@Colin
True that the swing might have been more dramatic (higher high to a lower low), but I think the reaction to LeBron’s decision is very much a visceral one, an enormous knee jerk reaction to a PR blunder. People are upset over the way he left, and rightfully so. But ultimately, it’s a more forgivable offense than Kobe’s. And actually, because LeBron was more admired a few months ago than Kobe was pre-Colorado, as you pointed out, I think people will be quick to remember that admiration. The fact that he’s not playing basketball right now doesn’t help LeBron’s image. When he gets back on the court, the no-look passes and chase-down blocks will help people remember why they liked him in the first place–not because of his marketing prowess, but because of his incredible basketball talents.
@Colin
Also, expanding further on your comparison between the LeBron and Kobe situation, you correctly point out that Kobe wasn’t all that popular pre-Colorado. I remember the line back then being, “Kobe has always been cold and calculating, and his true villainous side is now showing through.” And to some extent, that was true. Kobe was always calculating and felt a little contrived. The Eagle situation was further evidence for people who already thought of Kobe as an a**hole.
The tone surrounding LeBron’s career, and now “The Decision,” has definitely been different. Up until 2 weeks ago, LeBron had always come across, and I think most fans perceived him as, a fun-loving guy who gets a kick out of utilizing his immense basketball talent. People enjoyed rooting for him (unlike Kobe). But “The Decision” caused a complete about-face in the media and public opinion. In the end, however, because LeBron had so much positive press and momentum before July 8th, this could be viewed as one instance of bad decision-making. Whereas Kobe was “always a bad guy” and Colorado was just a sign of his true colors, LeBron could eventually be seen as a decent guy who made one terrible mistake. Of course, for the media to give him that kind of slack, he’ll need to win a few championships and have a few sit-downs with Bob Costas types and say how much he regrets hurting Cleveland with the TV special. I just believe that LeBron’s situation is far, far more redeemable than Kobe’s was.
Hey Cavs Fans,
In all seriousness, I think the best way for you guys to stick it to LeBron next season would be to completely boycott his first game back to The Q. You know he’s expecting a packed house of angry Cleveland fans ready to boo him and he’ll probably be playing extra hard to stick it to Dan Gilbert. Why not stage a massive boycott and not show up? You gave this guy everything for 7 years night in and night out. Let him show up to an empty arena as his homecoming. The truth is the Heat will probably win and LeBron will have somewhere in the 40′s, do you really need to see him come back to Cleveland to rub it in your face? The best thing you guys can do is make sure no one shows up and he has to play a game in an empty arena. i know that probably will not happen but could you imagine? Think about what it would mean to his image that the fans of his former city don’t even care to see him play and how pissed David Stern would be. Someone please start a site (i.e. BoycottLebronsReturn.com or something) and get this word out!
Good back and forth going on here guys. What we don’t have data on is how many LeBron fans are out there. I have yet to meet a person that was a LeBron fan first and a Cavs fan second that thought LeBron made an arse out of himself with The Decision. A scorned Clevelander never forgets, but a media-blitzed fan of individuals will. Kobe will always be despised until he retires.
I will be at every single game that lebron plays in Cleveland for the rest of his career. I will also be completely hoarse after each game because I will boo and jeer him until I cannot speak! The way things went down was reprehensible!
@ James: Kobe’s ‘offense’ (never convicted) was a lot worse than LeBron’s “Decision” but from a competitive LeBron made a bigger career mistake. Yes, a lot of fans are pissed over how LeBron announced his decision, but just about all basketball fans believe now that LeBron is trying to take the easy way out and has admitted he’s a failure. He has just about killed his image as a competitor that should be mentioned in the same breath as MJ, Magic, Larry and yes, Kobe. The one constant about Kobe has been his will to LEAD a team AND WIN. He not a guy that people like, Phil Jackson talked about him in his book, the issues with Shaq, the video of him talking bad about his teammates etc, Kobe is not nor has never been the most liked guy, but his ‘greatness’ as a player is solidified. The Colorado case didn’t do anything to squash that because that had nothing to do with basketball.
Also, to another point you made. There are a TON of players/hall of famers that get a ton of respect and don’t have rings. Malone, Stockton, Sir Charlse, Ewing etc. They don’t have rings and they are still among the greatest ever. I agree that some fans try to use the rings as a way to validate who’s better than whom, however, that’s a dumb argument and they know it. It’s just an easy/lazy one to use when comparing Kobe to LeBron. Many people say MJ is the greatest ever but Bill Russell and a few others have more rings than MJ. For that matter Robert Horry has more rings than MJ and Horry earned them on 3 differnt teams which could be considerd a more difficult feat than winning them on the same stacked team like Jordan did. Jordan Farmar has more rings than Stockton, does that make him better? Bottom line, it’s not about the rings, it’s about the player and how they approach the game. LeBron has hurt this image of himself forever and even if he wins 3+ rings with this Heat team, he’ll never get the ‘credit’ for it (like Horry doesn’t get the ‘credit’ for his rings – although he has them).
Man the Wade/WTC comment was harmless imo. People making something out of nothing in todays politcally correct world. He simply said the MEDIA would blow it out of proportion and compare it to something like the WTC. It’s sad that he had to apologize for that comment.
This is really all just public perception formed by the media. Kobe never made it out of the first round without either a better player or an equal player plus ridiculously stacked team. Lebron never had that and it’s even debatable if he will have it next year. He is younger than Wade and has been better for years so it’s perfectly possible he will be the clear number 1 guy on the Heat. If he wins multiple rings as the clear number 1 he will be one of very few players to do that, and Kobe is not one of them.
And don’t confuse “will to win” with playing on stacked teams:
Kobe Bryant’s Regular Season Win Percentage = .662
Lakers Win Percentage Without Kobe Bryant = .604 (95 games)
Difference = .058
LeBron James’ Win Percentage = .618
Cavs win percentage without LeBron James = .384 (26 Games)
Difference = .234
LeBron may be an ass but he is still by far the best player in basketball.
I’m not convinced that LeBron won’t get credit for championship rings won with the Heat. Most people expect that LeBron will be subordinate to Wade or, at best, equal to Wade, but when LeBron was still in Cleveland, most people agree that LeBron was a superior basketball player. What’s everyone going to say if LeBron emerges as the clear best player on the Heat and both Wade and Bosh are his sidekicks? I don’t think the Heat is destined to be Wade’s team; I think there’s a pretty good chance that LeBron will usurp him.
Furthermore, I still don’t buy that Jordan did things the “hard way.” LeBron is clearly trying to make winning easier for himself, but does anyone really think that if the second best player in the league wanted to play with Jordan, Jordan would have refused? If Jordan and Kobe really wanted to do things the “hard way,” they would have went to play with the Clippers and tried to make a dynasty out of a perennially crappy team.
LeBron is clearly the best player on the Heat but will be perceived as the guy who had to go somewhere to chase rings by teaming up with arguably the 2nd best player in the league and another top 10-15 player. Assuming the Heat win rings and LBJ is the finals MVP, he will still be perceived as taking the easy way out. Which he himself said when talking about not needing to feel the pressure to go out and score 30 pts every night. He’s joining Wade’s team and it will be interesting to see who ‘leads’ that team, right now Wade is the front-man with the interviews and quotes etc. LBJ is relatively media quiet since his “decision” – but I’m sure he’ll go on a PR round of interviews to try to repair his image as an asshole, but the image of a ‘great’ competitor is gone. It’s the loss of this perceived competitor/ability to will his team to a win etc. that will forever stop him from being considered among the greatest ever.
Although he may still be considered one of the ‘best ever’. Geatness is what makes you a legend, superior ‘talent’ only puts you in the HOF. Two differnt arguments, one is perception the other is stats. I said before that I think LBJ has a legit shot of averageing a tripple double for a season (only the Big O has done this), and yes the would clearly solidify him as one of the all-time best, but it will still take a lot more than that with a ring with a finals MVP to earn consideration as being the type of competitor or ‘legend’ with an MJ, magic or Larry.
Dave — Your comment about Jordan is way off base. Guess what? Before they drafted Jordan, a “perenially crappy team” is exactly what the Bulls were. Jordan had to go through years of playoff battles against two of the all-time great teams, the mid-80s Celtics and the Bad Boy Pistons, just to get to the Finals. Not to mention, beating the Cavs with “the Shot” was pretty damned impressive considering that that Cavs team was loaded with talent and swept the Bulls, 6-0, in the regular season. On top of all this, Jordan came back from 2 years off at an age when most players are past their prime, and led his team to a 2nd 3-peat. No way did he take the “easy” road to any of his titles. Don’t get me wrong, I grew up as a Cavs fan in the ’80s, and I HATED Jordan from “the Shot” onward. But don’t disparage what he accomplished as a basketball player. And as talented as Lebron is, he’ll never be considered on Jordan’s level.
Also — I wouldn’t be surprised if Lebron ends up as the 3rd-leading scorer on the Heat next year behind Wade and Bosh. And I’m not saying that’s a “bad” thing. From what Lebron’s said publicly, I really think he sees himself, ideally, as the player who will run the office, lead the team in assists, and crash the boards, and contribute scoring but not necessarily be the primary scorer. In other words, he’ll be Magic Johnson, and Wade and Bosh will be something akin to Worthy and Kareem (though those latter two comparisons aren’t nearly as accurate). But what will really be interesting is to see, not just who takes the last shot, but who will have the rock in his hands the most down the stretch of close games?
P.S.– Of course I meant, “run the offense,” not “office.” Though he probably did that too, when he was with the Cavs.
Kevin: “I have yet to meet a person that was a LeBron fan first and a Cavs fan second that thought LeBron made an arse out of himself with The Decision”
Does online count? LeBron is my favorite player ever. I’m from Ohio so had the pleasure of watching all of his games on Fox Sports. But I always thought the coaching, management, and players around him were beneath him. I never was, nor still am not, a fan of the Cavaliers but they became my favorite team b/c of LeBron. Though I’ll probably follow this blog still b/c some of Krolik’s posts are amazing
Anyway, LeBron handled the situation terribly. I’ll still love the way he plays b/c he really is a great team player and I have a lot of respect for his game. I was always objective – I mean, the guy has always been so arrogant. Dancing on the sidelines and such – most Cavs fans I know loved that stuff, while I thought it to be very unnecessary and beyond cocky. So “The Decision” really did not surprise me, but it made me lose a little respect for him as a person.
Then again, I’ve always taken athletes for what they are, not what crazed fans want them to be. And can we PLEASE stop with the Michael Jordan talk. NOBODY can convince me that MJ takes that 2007 Cavs squad on his back to the finals. LeBron is not Jordan, regardless of what ESPN might have told us. He is not nearly as selfish. However, they are both a**holes so I guess they have that in common.
Yea, Dave, the Bulls were the Clippers when Jordan got there. So, yea, he did do things the hard way.
Sevn dwarfs, how can you not say Kobe has won multiple titles as the clear number 1? He just did it twice. The gap between Kobe and Pau is bigger than the one between Wade and LBJ. People seem to just think LBJ is head and shoulders above Wade, and he isn’t. Wade is second to LBJ in PER and ahead of him in usage. The gap is easily small enough to that if/when they win titles, Wade won’t be in a backseat position.
Logic, how can you not think Jordan can do what LBJ can? If the only great thing LBJ has going for him is his stats….well, Jordan has him beat. The highest PER seasons ever were by…Jordan. Jordan could carry a team moreso than LBJ..ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. Exactly what about Jordan’s game made him selfish? The fact that he shot the ball a lot? I would think when you put up amazing PERs and have seasons in which you shoot FIFTY FOUR percent, shooting a lot shouldn’t be perceived as selfishness.
As a matter of fact, I think quitting in the playoffs shows a much higher degree of selfishness than anything Jordan ever did.
I love what James did in stretching out his decision. How many times have NBA players been cut or traded without notice and have to relocate their families. I enjoyed watching corporate america being held hostage for onece by the employee. It is funny how the owners got upset at the athlete having business sense. WOW! His brand has gained so much attention for this Lebron has solitified himself as the model of the NEW ATHLETE. The one that makes business decisions not emotional decisions that only get you run down and traded or cut because you dont sale tickets and make the owner money anymore.
@seven dwarfs and @Dave — Good points you guys, I’m with you. Especially the win percentage and “will to win” distinction, that’s solid man.
@ The Nupe
You say: “Bottom line, it’s not about the rings, it’s about the player and how they approach the game.” COME ON MAN. That’s silly! The people on this site specifically should take huge offense to that statement. For years Cavs fans screamed that LeBron was the best player alive (and they were backed by things like “evidence” and “facts”) and lazy analysts would say Kobe was the best (using words like “assassin” and “will to win”). Once a player reaches superstar status, his worth is judged by titles. That is unde-freaking-niable. And by the way, I agree that the “rings” argument is dumb and lazy. It ignores tons of empirical data about who’s a great player and who isn’t, and distills a great player’s career down to one statistic (titles). But that’s been the approach of the media and many fans for years. The media doesn’t get to change that barometer just to fit the rhetoric of the day (LeBron = evil).
And with respect to the Jordan deification, here’s a comment I posted about a week and a half ago:
“I’m really sick of this “Jordan would’ve never done this or that” junk. MJ did lots of awful, awful s***, but was lucky enough to be in a situation to win lots of titles. Like it or not, no matter how good you are, winning a title involves lots of luck. Winning 6 involves an extraordinary amount. Saying that punching teammates or being a pathological a**h**** results in titles makes little sense. It’s just as likely that being an inclusive person who likes to team up with buddies wins titles. So far, the arbitrary wheel of fortune hasn’t fallen that way. But make no mistake, it’s arbitrary. Jordan is not the God people wish he was, and neither is LeBron. Both are just great players, who give their teams great chances of winning. Luck has to do the rest.”
Beyond this, what’s the end goal of sports? WINNING. We all pine for players that want to win over all else. Since when did the analysis become, “Well, yeah, win, but win while demeaning everyone else around you.” Clearly Jordan’s approach of being “The Man” and never letting another living soul challenge him resulted in titles, so you can’t say it doesn’t work.
But it’s just one way to go about winning. Winning can also come from being inclusive, from playing with your friends, from getting everyone involved.
Was it sort of cool that Jordan was a cut-throat MF’er? Yeah, it was. But we NEED to stop with the masturbatory obsession about it, the deification of a guy who took a questionable approach to life, and realize that it’s just one way to go about achieving the same goal.
Winning is winning, whether you’re slitting throats or making partnerships.
I’m sorry, but Jordan DEFINITELY takes that 07 team to the finals. That might have been the weakest year any conference has seen in a long, long time. And that Pistons defense was severely overrated.
I would say Jordan even grabs a game against the Spurs, but I still don’t think they win that series.
So the Bulls sucked when Jordan got there. True, but Jordan didn’t win any titles when his team sucked. He won titles when his team got better. Jordan was clearly the catalyst and a huge reason for the Bulls getting better as a franchise, but it was because of more players than just him. I’ve seen many arguments on this blog about how the Bulls in their prime with Jordan were stacked. I’m not trying to disparage MJ; I’m just saying that even MJ himself never won a title by himself like people seem to think LeBron should be able to do. I’m not trying to defend LeBron as a person, but as a player, I don’t see why anyone should expect him to remain on a worse team just so he can prove he’s “The Man” when the fact is that no other superstars have done that successfully. Jordan allowed better players to come to Chicago instead of refusing them, and LeBron went to better players instead of refusing them by staying in Cleveland.
Really, if the ’96 Bulls without Jordan played the 2010 Cavs without Lebron, who do you think wins?
I just think everyone is confusing “being the best” (or even “being a winner”) with “being Jordan”. Just because Jordan was the best does not mean that you have to be like Jordan to be the best. It’s a logical fallacy that everyone seems to not see.
And Jordan is considered the best because he won. We place a huge premium on that intangible factor that seems to allow one person to win more than others, even though it may be a combination of many other, often arbitrary factors. Then, to turn around and say Lebron is not a competitor/winner is just totally hypocritical. We don’t know what is going to happen in Miami. He’s 25, he could win 10 rings in a row. Then what?
More than anything, I think people have to understand that when you are 25 (or really at any age), any one would take the chance to work with their best friends, day in and out for the next six years. I think fans tend to forget that even larger-than-life characters are driven by very much the same things we are.
@Dave
Shockingly, I’ve never heard the “96 Bulls vs. 2010 Cavs” argument made. That’s a great point, man.
It’s been noted plenty of times, though, that the Pippen-led, MJ-less Bulls won 55 games and made it to the conference finals. Of course, there was never a Cavs team during the LeBron era that would’ve been able to do that.
But here’s something to think about: doesn’t a Dwayne Wade + Chris Bosh Miami Heat team sound like about a 55 win, conference finals team? Is the supporting cast that Miami has for LeBron, though admittedly great, any better than the mid-90s Bulls supporting cast for MJ?
@Andrew
That’s what I’m talking about.
@Kevin
I’m a LeBron fan first, and was a Cavs fan second. I hope the Cavs do well because in watching LeBron I’ve become attached to their ragtag group of players, but that interest will wane after a month of watching them play. I’ll keep coming here because I think John Krolik is one of the best basketball writers we have, and even if his tone is now bitter towards LeBron and the Heat, it’ll still be a quality perspective and will probably be better than what’s available anywhere else.
LeBron is the reason I watch basketball. I think the league was pretty boring between 1998 and 2003. I’m more excited to watch him on his new team than I ever was watching him play in a crappy system with old second rate players, plucked from Europe or deep on other NBA benches. I’m a basketball fan, first and foremost, and LeBron is the best basketball player alive. I’m going to watch him every minute I can. I want him and Wade to put on a show that makes the NBA the focus of the sporting world. And it could happen. they could be that good. I don’t care that he’s a jerk. And I think the question of whether or not he’s a big dopey jerk has been resolved. He’s definitely a big dopey jerk. But I’d play with him. Not even a second thought. Don’t know that I’d want to play with Mike. Or Kobe. Those guys seem like dicks on the court. LeBron just seems to lack self awareness and perspective. Rare is the 25 year old hundred-millionaire that wouldn’t. Seems like a pretty good teammate though.
I’ve never been an advocate of the “X Rings = X^2 Greatness” argument. But I’ve never found the “But Robert Horry” rebuttal very convincing, either.
I see it as attacking a straw man, because it ignores the greatness parameter in the aforementioned equation. When people point to Kobe’s rings, they are pointing specifically at the rings on Kobe’s fingers, not the ones on his fortunate, role-playing teammates’ hands.* The actual argument is intended to distinguish between two otherwise equally talented players, using ring differential as a reason why one is ultimately superior to the other. Robert Horry is completely irrelevant to the argument. In that way I don’t think using ring counts is entirely flawed, so long as it is just a component of the argument for a particular player’s greatness and not the whole argument (which is a way that it is often applied.)
*Teammates obviously contributed to Kobe’s ability to win championships, but apart from Shaq or Gasol, the rest of the guys on his teams could feasibly be exchanged for at least one other player in the league without affecting the outcome (championship).
Damn, F-ed my tags.
I’m NOT saying that “X MVPs = X Greatness” but I think that’s a lot more relevant than “X Rings = X Greatness”.
I don’t know if there is any formula to determine best player ever or greatest player ever. One thing I do believe is that rings is not a part or a very very very small part of it. Rings are given to a TEAM and represent the best team that year. The only thing I can think of that really starts to get at best PLAYER would be MVP awards. Not saying that an MVP is the right answer, but at least it’s based on individual skill/talent/stats combined with a perception of how much that person contributes to the team.
There are so many statistics and subjective factors that impact how good a player is. Rules change from one year to the next also have an effect. Hand checking, Zone Defense, Shot Clock, Three Point Line etc, have all changed and make the “best ever” argument that much more difficult because differnt players may have done a lot better or worse under differnt rules.
Personally what take LeBron out of the best ever consideration for me is that he hasn’t proven to have a great jump shot form 15+. Jordan was criticized earlier in his career for the same thing and then developed it. Bron can still improve his jumper and his post moves that could put him up there. But until then I would view Kobe as the better current player. And yes I know Kobe did not win MVP (not to contradict my argument, just to show how difficult it is)
@ The Nupe
You’re cherry-picking accomplishments, skills, achievements and stats to fit your viewpoint.
Colin: “I’m sorry, but Jordan DEFINITELY takes that 07 team to the finals. That might have been the weakest year any conference has seen in a long, long time. And that Pistons defense was severely overrated.
I would say Jordan even grabs a game against the Spurs, but I still don’t think they win that series.”
Why exactly? The lineup of Eric Snow, Michael Jordan, (insert Larry Hughes’ equivalent of SF here if you believe that the team would not start 2 shooting guards), Drew Gooden, and Z would be worse than having LeBron. Your use of “DEFINITELY” (hilarious that you copied my all caps technique, well done) implies that the lineup would be markedly better than the Cavs because it took a Herculean, once in a lifetime performance by LeBron to carry them through the Pistons. But 4th year Michael Jordan, with no patience for bad teammates, would have tried to score 45+ a game and lost to a well rounded Detroit team. LeBron was the only creator on that 2007 squad and maximized the potential of them.
I will admit that the East was weak, as you said, but LeBron was the man in that postseason. He even deferred to a young Tits Gibson in Game 6 to finish the job, something I believe MJ never would have done. I mean can you imagine the dirty looks Michael Jordan would given a geriatric Eric Snow after bricking his 5th consecutive wide open 15 footer? He might have strangled him on the court
I would be really interested if you had an argument as to how subbing MJ for LeBron makes that 2007 Cavs team better. And not if your argument is the ever repeated, “Jordan was a killer, he would have refused to lose because he was just so competitive” because it doesn’t mean anything.
Logic, I don’t understand how you can still think LBJ is a great teammate when you just saw what we all saw..he QUIT on his team. This whole idea that his “deferring” is linked to him being a good teammate is bogus now. We know, for a fact, he sucks as a teammate.
The arguements going on here are impossible to prove. This team vs. that team. This player on this team and that player on another team. It’s all speculation. I perosnally believe Jordan with this Cavs team beats the Celtics. I can’t prove that. But it’s no different than saying the 96 Bulls beat the 07 Cavs. Who the hell knows?
James, you (and ton of other people) are severly underestimating the greatness of Dwayne Wade. He took that POS team to 47 wins last year. Bosh gets them to 60 wins alone. That’s how good Wade is. Again, to compare that to the 96 Bulls is impossible though, because you ahve to factor in conference strength and then even further you have to factor in division strength. It’s impossible to know what the 96 Bulls do in 2010. I don’t know. I just know that Wade took the worst roster in the league (yea, I think Miami had the least amount of talent, except for Wade himself) to 47 wins and the 5th seed. I’m confident the man could win a title with just Chris Bosh. He is that good. I would have loved to see his PER numbers with an actual teammate this year, like Bosh. Now, they will be skewed because LBJ joining the team, so it will be hard to know what the man, in his prime, could have done as the clear number 1 who had some help. Oh well.
I think the idea to boycott James return to the Q is a great idea!
Just looked at the pic on ESPN.com of T-Mac, Shaq and AI and wondered if the Cavs added all 3 right now. ?????????????
@Rich
I find it a bit contradictory that on one hand you have used PER to make your points several times in this comment section alone but on the other hand you find Kobe to be the clear number one on the Lakers. Kobes and Gasols PER were very similar the last 2 years and this year Gasols PER was higher, despite the fact that PER is a very Kobe-friendly metric, especially against Gasol, because it rewards low efficiency chucking to a degree (as in every additional shot taken at 40%+ FG% increases PER).
In less chucking-friendly metrics Gasol was 5th in offensive rating, 15th in defensive rating, 7th in win shares and 5th in WS/48 – Lebron was the only player in the whole NBA better than Gasol across these stats while Kobe did not crack the top 20 in any of them.
Wade is very close to Lebron but Lebron is younger and healthier and could very well be the clear number 1 on the Heat in the future. It’s at least more likely than Wade dominating Lebron statistically like Gasol does Kobe.
@ Rich
Ah, at first I thought you meant that him choosing to leave the Cavs meant LeBron was a bad teammate. I realize now you must be referring to the weird Boston series situation. I agree that his play and demeanor in that series was, well, despicable. I don’t get it. Unless there was some really crazy stuff going on behind the scenes, it’s impossible to defend what he did in that series. That said, however, I don’t know that he sucks as a teammate. He stunk it up that series, and yeah, he probably gave up. But he gave 7 years of all-out basketball, and was a good teammate all the way up until his last 3 or so games as a Cav.
With respect to D-Wade, I agree, he’s fantastic. Is he better than Scottie Pippen was, though? I don’t know the answer to that. Pippen was a top-50 all-timer player, and as the only star on the 95 Bulls, took his team to within one game of the Finals. Wade won the 06 Finals, and I won’t discount what he did there, but he had a good supporting cast led by Shaq, who at that time was still in MVP discussions (crazy, but true). Also, it’s pretty clear that D-Wade isn’t quite the explosive force that he was at 24. He’s 28, and has definitely already peaked from a physical standpoint. Finally, it’s hard to rely on computer projections and all that, but the projections were 55 wins after the Heat signed Bosh and Wade, and 66 after they signed LeBron. YOU may feel like Wade and Bosh equals 60+ wins. All I’m saying is that the Bulls minus MJ may be much closer to the Heat minus LeBron than everyone is making it out to be.
@James:
Pippen did not get the Bulls to within one game of the finals. They lost in the East Semis in 94.
@Logic:
4th year Jordan? I don’t know. I can only vouch for the Jordan I was alive to see (6 rings Jordan), and that Jordan would have made it happen because he had matured to a point that he realized he couldn’t go it alone.
The Nupe,
I think we’re pretty much in agreement. Like I said, I don’t find that equation very useful either. I just find the knee jerk “But Robert Horry” retort almost as useless.
HA, hemlock, the patented “I follow celebrity not a team” koan.
If you’re such a basketball fan, isn’t a part of you going to miss seeing Congressman James and Wade go head to head in a fourth quarter, trying to beat each other? You’d rather watch them sit on the bench while Big Z, Joel Anthony, Daequan Cook and some other minimum player jack up 3s in a 30 point win? THAT’S BEING A BASKETBALL FAN?
You are a bandwagon fan. Trying to take the holier than thou approach just makes you seem petty at the same time.
James, I would say Wade is a better player than Pippen. If they go on to win a few titles, it will be an easy choice between the two.
I’d also say Wade’s best two years have been the last two. I don’t think he’s peaked at all (unless last year was it..who knows).
@ ben tej, no, i’m not going to miss lebron vs dwayne wade, and no true basketball fan will either. because lebron vs wade is a myth, a media construct used to sell tickets to a regular season game that doesnt matter. the heat vs the cavs were terrible games, producing nothing more than sportscenter fodder when it was realized that both teams were so bad that the final minutes had to be dominated by the only real playmakers on each side. so no, im not going to miss watch two great basketball players revert to a 1v1 schoolyard game when there’s so much potential for something better.
when people say they miss the great basketball of the eighties, they’re not talking about the shooting. they might think they are, but we know that shooting back then wasnt any more accurate than it is now. they certainly werent talking about the shorts. they’re talking about the play. the play was better. teams were more functional. stars (pre-jordan) could operate effectively at a number of different positions. they were as likely to lead their teams in rebounds or assists as in points. it was as common to see a great dish by bird or magic back then as it was to see a great bucket.
few teams now have both the quality of players and the time playing with each other to build up that kind of quality of play. boston has it. maybe nobody else, including the lakers. the heat wont have it this year. but they could get there.
it would have been great to see the cavs get there. but it wasnt going to happen because no great player is going to willingly go to cleveland, and the cavs were never able to trade for anybody who would qualify. as a basketball fan, i wish it would have worked for lebron in cleveland but knew it probably wouldnt. i wanted to see him next to quality players somewhere else. miami works.
we’re not going to see lebron have as many 1v1 matchups, but this isn’t rucker park. when that happens something is broken anyway. we will now have a chance to see him fulfill his potential: a great player on a great team playing other great teams. championships arent handed out to teams with the highest PER. theyre going to have to beat ORL, BOS, SA, DEN, and maybe, LAL. all of those teams have more time together and play with rosters that have been molded strategically over time.
this is going to be a great basketball season. probably the best in a long time.
@Colin
Sorry, got all mixed up with the 95 thing too. Stupid work by me. Either way though, my point is the same. That Bulls team was GOOD without MJ. I think they’re very comparable to a D-Wade and Chris Bosh Heat team.
And beyond that, the reason I’m making that point in the first place is that the deification of MJ is over the freaking top. He had a solid supporting cast and was lucky enough to win 6 titles. The fact that he a cut-throat a**hole didn’t mean he was destined to win 6 titles…things happened to fall his way after he put his team in a good position to win.
“Logic, I don’t understand how you can still think LBJ is a great teammate when you just saw what we all saw..he QUIT on his team. This whole idea that his “deferring” is linked to him being a good teammate is bogus now. We know, for a fact, he sucks as a teammate. ”
This is an embarrassing revisionist history. LeBron’s teammates in Cleveland loved him and he was always an unselfish player. Do you only remember the 2010 playoffs? Because I haven’t even been discussing that, and one series is a very small sample size. I know that Cavs fans are bitter and hate LeBron now but come on…one series does not completely erase what he did for the previous 6 years.
Logic, I completely agree with you. From my comment above…..
“I don’t know that he sucks as a teammate. He stunk it up that series, and yeah, he probably gave up. But he gave 7 years of all-out basketball, and was a good teammate all the way up until his last 3 or so games as a Cav. “
So you’d rather watch them sit on the bench in the 4th quarter laughing than watch Congressman James led Bulls vs. a revamped Heat team? That’s ridiculous. (Aside: Of course the LeBron/Wade matchups were meaningless the last few years — MIA was gutting their roster.)
Would you rather rewatch the first Dream Team Olympics or the Redeem Team Olympics? It seems like you’d prefer the former because you, the true basketball fan, get to watch one super team trounce everyone else.
Enjoy your basketball porn in Miami this year, true basketball fan.
@ ben tej:
the cavs trounced a lot of teams last year and you’re correct in that it made the 4th quarter (and sometimes 2-4) optional. but, yeah, i might still watch. i used to watch tyson fights when everybody knew he was going to kill the guy. because it was still tyson.
but you’re mistaken if you assume that’s going to happen more than usual with the heat. even very good teams, like boston in 08, play to the level of their opponents. and against good teams, there are no assurances. you really think miami is that much better than the other good teams in the league that they’ll go through everybody without making it interesting? i do not. for the most part jordan’s teams didn’t. and they, in my opinion, had just as strong a 5 man unit as these guys.