Notes and Errata: July 6th, 2010
2010-07-06-So Amar’e Stoudemire is a Knick. The James-D’Antoni-Amar’e pick-and-roll would have been perhaps the single most unstoppable offensive set in the history of the NBA. (According to Synergy, LeBron was a more efficient scorer as the pick-and-roll ballhandler than Steve Nash was last year. Consider this, and also think about who James’ roll partners were.)
Too bad for New York, and Amar’e, that they never thought about how a complete team needed to be built around that pick-and-roll. Amar’e hasn’t shown he can play any defense. In 2010, it’s very hard to get by with a flat-out liability at the 4 or the 5. Maybe Amar’e could be convinced to play some defense by the right coach, but it’s not like Amar’e played good defense under D’Antoni in Phoenix. (Although I will say that Phoenix was an underrated defensive team when they had a Marion-Amar’e frontline.)
As for the Knicks, all they can offer LeBron is a good pick-and-roll partner. Danilo Gallinari plays LeBron’s position and can’t take any pressure off of LeBron defensively. The Knicks have nobody who can guard the rim. Toney Douglas is their point guard. They have no draft picks.
Part of me is sad that I’ll never get to see a LeBron-Amar’e pick-and-roll, but alas. Just another example of the human flaws in the foundation of something that could have been beautiful. (My apologies for counting out New York as a legitimate possibility — I know that anything can happen in free agency, and don’t have any access to the inner workings of LeBron’s mind, but New York has seemed like a fringe possibility for some time now.)
Just so we’re everybody clear here, Toney Douglas is 24 years old and had one eight-assist game last season. Steve Nash has averaged at least 8.8 assists since LeBron’s rookie year. This is going to work out great.
-THANK THE LORD THEY PUSHED BACK FILMING ON THAT STUPID LEBRON MOVIE. That may be the best news I’ve heard all month. The media would have rained BRIMSTONE upon that film. You have to win a championship before trying to pull stunts like starring in Ballers. It doesn’t matter whether or not filming would have actually kept LeBron from improving his game; what matters is that people think it would/will. Now LeBron just has to spend a few hours working out with Kevin McHale and making sure photographers are on hand.
-Good, somebody is going to take Shaq off of Cleveland’s hands. I’ll get to this in depth when I do Shaq’s report card, but I felt like he took stuff off the table more often than not last season. During that brief period before he injured himself when he had his one-on-one scoring touch going, he was something. And who knows what we’d be saying about Shaq if the Cavs had met Dwight Howard in the playoffs.
That said, I have had enough of watching the Cavs sacrifice possessions to a flat Shaq hook-shot in order to appease their center. I’ve had enough of Shaq getting tied up on the pick-and-roll. I’ve had enough of Shaq and Varejao crashing into each other around the rim like college kids trying to get a drink at a crowded party.
I don’t mind watching players try and fail, but I don’t like watching guys who aren’t with the proverbial program. Shaq tried to stay in shape and keep his ego in check, but he never really looked comfortable being a role player on offense. (All the good attitude in the world wouldn’t have helped Shaq on the pick-and-roll.) Finally, I am still holding Shaq’s refusal to come off the bench at ANY POINT against him. Especially when he was coming back from the injury.
-It makes me sad to see Delonte referred to as “Delonte’s contract.” Whether the Cavs will get 08-09 Delonte or 09-10 Delonte next season is impossible to know, and it has huge implications for the team’s offseason strategy.
-Derrick Rose would have preferred Joe Johnson over LeBron? Really? Because Rose and Johnson share and agent, and Johnson would theoretically be better as a second banana? (I will note that Joe has been running the “Iso-Joe offense for a good while now in Atlanta.) I’m happy about this development as a Cavalier fan, but it does kind of make me sad as a fan of people.
Alright, that’s all for tonight. Until tomorrow, campers.
(Although we help pry Paul away by throwing JJ in the offer.)
(I really wish there was a way to edit past posts, so that I didn’t always end up commenting in clusters.)
Also, Paul might have to refuse Indiana as a destination, so that they don’t just choose him and do the deal without us.
Here is another version, letting NO keep West and Indy keep Murphy: http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5596794
So… I’ve been tinkering a little more with Chris Paul trades. I noticed that Indiana has a lot of expiring contracts and a need at PG. There’s some trades with them that could work. But, I don’t care about Indiana, and I bet Chris Paul would be much more interested in playing with LeBron in Cleveland. So I’ve been looking at possible 3-team deals with Indiana, NO and Cleveland, and I have to say there’s some interesting possibilities. I know the Cavs would do anything to get Chris Paul. So a deal would depend on the Hornets’ and Pacers’ strategies.… Read more »
Time to check THOMAS. Have a feeling some more fun laws will be passed through unsuspectingly while America is tuned into LeBron, dancing shows, talent competitions, and housewives of the apocalypse.
now where did you hear that?
I think everyone is getting a little overexcited. Nobody sane expects Amare to lead the Knicks to a championship all on his own. However, he is the best big man they have had since Ewing (and note Ewing never won a championship either – I still cringe when I hear the name Charles Smith) and the last decade has not shown much. What Amare does provide is the ability to hit the playoffs again and add additional pieces to make the Knicks once again respectable. Without a second high octane player the Knicks are not championship material, but they can… Read more »
if the knicks get lebron they wouldn’t even need a passing point guard. also, gallinari could make a great stretch 4. sure, he’d get destroyed on defense, but this is the knicks, everyone’s getting destroyed on defense.
On a side note the Bulls apparently have a deal on hold to send Deng to Portland for Bayless and Pyzbilla. Apparenttly waiting for a wade/LBJ commitment to pull the trigger.
Two things: Why would that get Wade or LBJ to go there, and more important, why wouldn’t you be pulling the trigger on that regardless? That’s just a good trade all around for Chicago. Unload Dengs contract (Pryz is a FA next year) and get a really promising young gun? Wtf are you waiting for….
I like you Mike. I’ve seen to many people (Broussard included) who are pretending this two max guys + Carmelo scenario is real. I see it everywhere on knicks blogs and posts..and it drives me insane. One thing people out there need to udnerstand is this…flat out signing three max players is impossible. It will never happen. This is why Miami won’t happen. This is why Chicago won’t happen. You need to straight up trade for one, if not two. The other one just needs to be there from the start. BTW, Knicks fans happy that chicago decided to pay… Read more »
By the way, John, I really like the blog (as much as the opinion of an anonymous Knicks fan matters) and hope that if LBJ isn’t on his way to NYC, he stays in Cleveland.
Oh no I get that. I’m pretty sure the number is around 11.3 million or so, which is clearly below any max offer. They might be able to use that money to find a serviceable center, or a more traditional point guard.
Oh, and Mike I’m not saying Toney Douglas has no value in the league. What I am saying is that Knicks fans are about to find out the hard way that Amare is not a superstar. He has had the best set-up man in the league over the last 5 years feeding him the ball. Now…he doesn’t have that. Nash made Amare, not the other way around. If Amare wasn’t good enough w/ Nash, how can he be good enough w/ Douglas?
Mike, just tell me you aren’t one of the Knicks fans who doesn’t understand salary cap rules and therefore realizes that if you add another max contract this year..you can’t add Melo next year. PLEASE tell me you get that?
Robin captures it perfectly; Toney isn’t the next superstar, but he’s shown the capacity to be a quality on the ball defender and shooter. And Rich, as much as I disagree with you, I appreciate you avoiding the trademark unintelligent responses of “Rich please apologize to mike for dismissing tony douglass as inferior to Steve nash. He’s a superstar hall of fame point guard and possible candidatefor beat shooter of all time IN THE MAKING.” Reading comprehension is a valued skill, Tom. Besides, I don’t think the Knicks ever pitched Lebron on winning now; they’ve played off of his desire… Read more »
One would assume. I have a HARD time believing the Raptors do that deal WITH Beasley. W/o him it makes no sense at all. Wtf are you gaining there? Trade exceptions are so incredibly overvalued…unles you have a terrible GM who thinks your team can immediately rebuild around Hedo, which would be the direction he would be taking that team if he made that trade.
Raptors fans should be rioting in the streets.
Anyway, if all of Bucher’s tweets are correct, isn’t it just a matter of time before the teams make that deal or something similar?
I think Chris Bosh is about to find that same thing out in Houston. He’s going to have to be the superstar..and he won’t be able to to cut it. Of course, a healthy Yao changes all of that.
Not trying to shit on Douglas so much as say that Amar’e never really took the Suns to the promised land as an individual force, and there he had the perfect point guard feeding him. Now he’ll be counted on to be the man in New York, and he won’t be getting the same passes he was from Nash, or close to it. Douglas is a fine prospect, but Amar’e needs to be a superstar now, and he’s never shown he can be that without an elite point guard feeding him. Toney Douglas is not an elite point guard.
And of course Rich is also right that he’s seriously unproven.
Interesting discussion about Toney Douglas. I watched some Knicks games this past season. Rich is right that he’ll never come close to providing Amare with the kind of spoon-feeding that he got from Nash. But Toney’s a different kind of PG, more of a poor man’s Chauncey Billups if he pans out. He could be an effective player as a gritty defender, outside shooter, and opportunistic scorer. He had a run of good games where he showed as much.
Besides..teams are supposedly trying to attact LeBron with how they can win right now. Toney Douglas, no matter how you wanna slice it, doesn’t fit into the “win right now” mode.
Rich is on top of it, of course.
It’s just so easy to spot a Knick fan. They listen to Chris Sheridan tell them that their roster really, truly is good, and they run with it. Look, Mike. Maybe it isn’t fair to judge Toney Douglas. You know what, it isn’t fair to say that Cousins won’t be the next Moses Malone. However, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say Cousins won’t be the next Moses Malone. Pretty legit thing to say that Douglas is not Nash..and Amare has not played with a guy this low on the totem pole before. He will struggle more than… Read more »
Ahhh, nevermind. Apparently Bucher’s tweet didn’t mean what it seemed to.
Rich please apologize to mike for dismissing tony douglass as inferior to Steve nash. He’s a superstar hall of fame point guard and possible candidatefor beat shooter of all time IN THE MAKING.
That was a hypothetical trade, that realmgm picked up and ran as truth. Bucher has since clarified.
Robin took the bait.
read his page a little more robin.
Bosh is officially signed-and-traded to Miami, per Rick Bucher http://twitter.com/RicBucher/status/17901785172. Not sure where this leaves us. Obviously Wade is a safe bet to stay in Miami now. Could Chicago sign LeBron and David Lee, and maybe Mike Miller for the midlevel? That still sounds like a team that would carry a lot of appeal. Damn, and all these earlier reports about Raptors OK’ing a CLE sign-and-trade for Bosh got my hopes up. And MQ I don’t think my Chris Paul trade has much chance either. But I do see NO wanting to unload all three of those guys in any… Read more »
I’m not saying he’s going to be a superstar. I just don’t think its fair to sarcastically deride Douglas by saying “Just so we’re everybody clear here, Toney Douglas is 24 years old and had one eight-assist game last season. Steve Nash has averaged at least 8.8 assists since LeBron’s rookie year. This is going to work out great.” when he clearly hasn’t had enough time or experience to develop.
………..really? Nash’s career is very strange and not one many people will follow. Slow starter that became a superstar. Odds of Toney Douglas doing the same thing…not good.
I enjoyed your dismissal of Toney Douglas with the nice snide remark about his age and production. He’s 24, yes, but he’s also a second year player; when Nash was 24, he averaged 3.4 assists while getting 3 minutes more per game than Douglas, who averaged 2 assists as a rookie. Nash averaged 2.1. Also, Douglas was named the ACC Defensive Player of the Year, an award that Nash, as a defensive liability, would never receive. I’m not arguing that at this moment Douglas is better than Nash, or that he will even have a better career. I just don’t… Read more »
I’m going to say those aren’t Bosh’s only concerns. I’d be stunned if Bosh had an actual basketball related concern at this point.
Furthermore, people need to remember this man is filming himself for a movie. Don’t think he’s not purposefully dragging this out as long as possible so on the movie it can actually seem like some agonizing decision. If he doesn’t want to go to Cleveland, then he would have made up his mind by this point. I think he has made up his mind and is going to Houston…but just playing this thing for all it’s worth.
If Bosh’s only concern about coming to cleveland is the center spot – then I respect that. If the Cavs can get him to commit to coming if they get a center, then I wonder if keeping Shaq or trading for Hatywood would satisfy him. Personally I’d like to keep Shaq because he’s still needed against Orlando. Bosh gives us a true offensive weapon besides LeBron. What I find interesting is would we have Jamison start at the 3 and Lebron at the 2 – or Have twan come of the bench? Seems like a waste to let him sit… Read more »
Woj, has honest t ogod, been the best dude to follow through this whole thing. Not because it’s all pro CLE, but because he’s been right. more solid than Windy has been imo.
Wojnarowski (a LeBron hater but pretty solid reporter) just tweeted this:
Cavs officials are confident of two things now, multiple sources say: Chris Bosh won’t play for them next season, but LeBron James will.
Tweets by WojYahooNBA
And in case you didn’t notice, the proposed deal (obviously could be wrong) does NOT involve Hedo. Toronto honestly wants to hold on to Hedo……it can’t be real can it?
Rofl..and as i type this Broussard changed his tune again. Guy is such a clown.
BTW, if you are still listening to Chris Broussard, don’t. On good and bad things, ignore him. He changes his mind every 15 minutes, overreacts to minor news, and has been wrong quite a bit.
So, ignore him when it’s good news. Ignore him when it’s bad news. It becomes a lot easier to deal with the day.
Well, I’m not getting my hopes up. Bosh just doesn’t strike me as someone who is willing to give up ANYTHING in order to win. He won’t give up moeny to play in Miami. He won’t do it to play in CHicago. Why would he give up his need for big town to play in Cleveland? The guy is going to end up staying in Toronto….
Everybody hates. http://www.draftdaysuit.com/2010/07/05/unloveable/
Bosh strikes me as willing to put aside his distaste for Cleveland for some sweet, sweet max contractage.
The message to Bosh should be: Come to Cleveland, pair with LeBron, win a few titles, and go down as an all-time top 50 player. (Or go to Houston and be nowhere in terms of a legacy.)
If they can actually persuade Bosh to visit, it would be nice to see a large friendly crowd greeting him somewhere.
I don’t get it either. You’re here for 41 games plus some practice sessions. Not exactly a vacation town but what the fuck do they expect?
I’ll tell you what, this gives me ammo next time someone whines around that because LeBron wasn’t committed players didn’t want to come here.
Wrong. Players don’t want to come here because players don’t like the city, period. It’s a fact that I’ve come to accept. It’s lame. It sucks. I think they are wrong. But it’s how these players feel.
Wasnt there a possible deal of Shaq for a center? that would keep bosh at the 4, andy off the bench and LBJ here.
was watching first take and chris mannix of SI was on and he thinks the reason Bosh wont want to play in Cleveland is that he fears he’ll have to play the center position and isnt sure if Cavs will have a solid enough guy at center. currently thats a valid point, i mean do we put Z there or try to get Haywood from Dallas, if we get bosh we lose either hickson or andy and if andy stays id rather he come off the bench….thats his strength….guess we’ll see how things shape up here…lot of different twists and… Read more »
Does anyone know what his reservation about Cleveland is supposed to be? Just that it isn’t a glamorous place to live or some perception that he can’t get endorsements playing in a small market?
Apparently he will agree to play in NEWARK though…
Good point about the movie too.
Lol at bosh wanting to play with LBJ but not in Cleveland. Hope he gets his head outta his ass
Mike Miller isn’t GREAT on defense, but he does defensive board very well. LeBron, Mike Miller, Jamison, Andy, and Bosh? That’s a 5 man lineup of guys who have averaged 7+ boards a game in a season. That is a brutal half court offense lineup, and a really good defensive rebounding lineup. I’d play a zone with that lineup. I still say Anthony Morrow is the guy, but Mike Miller would fit very well. I’m surprised Toronto doesn’t want Jamison though. However, if Bosh is smart he’ll consider Houston and the chance to be THE MAN in the fourth largest… Read more »
Who needs defense? Look, we pull off this SnT, we aren’t winng a title. We don’t pull of this SnT, we aren’t winning a title. A title is a couple of years down the road anyway, might as well get the second star sooner rather than later. Now…if somehow, someway we can keep Hickson and get Bosh, I would immediately stop caring about historical facts and the bigger picture and proclaim Gilbert the greatest owner of all time. Anyway, this is still a long shot..because Bosh is a diva. Shaq told us as much a long time ago. RuPaul does… Read more »
this bosh thing is pretty exciting…and im not sure why he isnt jumping at the bit….who cares if its cleveland…have a chance to play for a contender with the King and make it far in the playoffs…why wouldnt you take that…not sure i understand the reasoning…we’ll he get big bucks thru this? just askin have heard about mike miller…he’s a solid dude but another 2 guy with no defense…saw that in parker who was allegedly good at defense and well it seemed like he was abused a lot…sorta wish Salmons came here..he would be a solid 2 guy who plays… Read more »
Screw defense, just make sure you are shooting 65% every game and you should win.
Lol with Mike Miller we would have the best shooting backcourt in the league…along with the worst defensive backcourt in the league. Not sure how I feel about that. Although with LeBron and Bosh, I wouldn’t complain.
A couple questions: 1) who’s going to take Shaq off our hands? And are we going to get a big man somehow? and 2) is Shaq a legit sign and trade option? If he signs a one-year deal it seems like he could be a nice salary match that then becomes a nice expiring contract for whoever we send him to. Reasonable Or will no one do that? Finally, I know this isn’t going to happen in any possible world, but could you imagine what would happen if we kept Varejao, JJ and Jamison and still signed Bosh? We could… Read more »
I think Mike Miller seems like the go to SG right now. He’s with LeBron today. He said he would be willing to take less money to play ona good team. I think these are all pretty clear signs.
I think AMick confirmed it. I know there is another legit guy that has confirmed Broussard’s report.
Anyway, I agree with Colin. Dont care if we win a title next year. As a matter of fact, we will be giving up so much..we won’t. But it does mean LeBRon is staying for the long term, and that’s all I care about right now.
The Bosh sign and trade sounds great, but it sure sounds like he doesn’t want to come to Cleveland. Let’s hope LeBron can convince him…
Also, Colin, Windhorst did retweet that, but also said “if Broussard’s report is accurate” in his next tweet. But he has been saying the Cavs have the assets to pull it off, so it seems likely that it’s true. But it doesn’t mean anything if Bosh isn’t on board.
@Colin: just read the same reports. I give it much more weight since Windhorst tweeted it. Just hope Bosh sees the light and comes to his senses and agrees to come to the Cleve. Lebron has done alright in the marketing department from here, so can Bosh. If the trade went through as discussed, we would have a starting five of: PG – Mo SG – ?? (mike miller seems to be oft mentioned) SF – Lebron PF – Bosh C – Sasha Kahn? Bench: Boobie, Raptor bad contract #1, Andy or JJ, Danny Green, Jawad Williams, Leon Powe. Can… Read more »
If we get Bosh in a sign and trade, then we are definitely getting Hedo. That may not be a bad thing. The guy is a good play maker and could be deadly off the bench if he put forth the effort.
It would be awfully hard for LeBron to sign with the Knicks if he’s busy recruiting Bosh to Cleveland: Broussard: “Raptors have told Cavs they would do a sign-and-trade with them for Bosh. Cavs and LeBron working to convince Bosh to join them in Cleveland.” Now, before you say, “Oh, its Broussard, how would he know?” Windy Retweeted this, so there so it is most likely legit. God, how ironic would it be for the Cavs to end up with LeBron and Bosh after all these teams traded everything to get cap room. This whole time Cavs fans have been… Read more »
Well, the one thing it has going for it is no one wants Okafor’s contract. They’d rather he not be a core of their team.
I love Robin’s trade where the Hornets give us Paul-Okafor-West — the whole core of their team — in exchange for all the stuff we want to unload, plus Hickson. Obviously never going to happen but you can dream…if I were a GM I would make phone calls about those kinds of trades just to make sure I wasn’t missing the next great NBA giveaway.
Not even kidding, Ian O’Conner just said in MnM in the morning, that it was a race between LBJ and Wade as to who signs first with the Knicks. If the Knicks fans keep getting this stupid effin reports, how are they ever going to know what’s true and what isn’t? ARE YOU KIDDING ME ESPN NEW YORK??!?! SERIOUSLY!!
I thought BUcher had a good point last night in regards to Bulls freaking out about not getting Wade/LBJ. They don’t need a batman. Rose can be that guy. They need a Robin, like Joe Johnson (gone now) or a David Lee. Totally agree with the Amare thing. Is Amare for 100 million really a better deal than David Lee for 75 million? Really now? And, I’m not going to jump to conclusions that Amare is actually a better player than David Lee. I know that seems dumb to even question, but like Krolik pointed out..Amare has played with Steve… Read more »
Rose + LBJ would be an absolte nightmare to defend as long as Chi also had serious shooters at the 2 + 4 (e.g. Allen + Bosh). Not sure I’d buy Deng and Boozer/Lee in those spots if I was LeBron.
@Robin, I think you are selling D. Rose short. With the hand check rules the league has in place, a quick, penetrating guard is simply a nightmare for most teams. The rules are perfectly catered to a player with Rose’s skill set. See the way he simply abused the Cavs in the 1st round. I agree that his outside shot still needs work, but he is also only 21 years old. Right now he would be the best player Lebron ever played with. I also agree about Noah. I hate the guy and thought he was a reach when the… Read more »
Call me crazy but how about Nash?
Phoenix have Dragic and could effectivley start over again with him and Hickson. Throw in Mo, West and either Moon/Parker for Nash and Barbosa.
PG: Nash / Gibson, Telfair
SG: Barbosa / Moon or AP
SF: LBJ / Jawad, Green
PF: Jamison / Powe
C: Varejao / Z
Obviously it’s another short-term fix but wouldn’t both teams be up for this and wouldn’t playing with Nash be enough to sell Cle to LeBron?
I don’t see how Amare makes the Knicks much better. Assuming they don’t re-sign David Lee now, they are just replacing a pretty good big man. While Amare is better, I don’t think the difference is going to change much for the Knicks. If they do re-sign David Lee, they might have the worst defensive frontcourt in the history of the NBA. I certainly hope that rumor about Rose is true. I actually disagree with Robin, and would have to say Rose is the real draw for LeBron. Noah is a great player, but he brings a lot of the… Read more »
A few thoughts in response to this and comments in the last thread: -The Knicks are a wasteland + Amare. And despite all hype, have no ability to get a max FA next summer. Bad option for LeBron, no question. -I mostly agree about Shaq. Wouldn’t mind having him back but he MUST come off the bench. Don’t see why any team would want to start him, or pay him more than MLE. -Przybilla, Miller and Batum for Paul is not a good deal, and the Hornets absolutely can get better. Even from the Cavs, this would be a lot… Read more »