“Well, first things first: I will never say anything bad about Derek Fisher ever again. He could start launching the ball at his own basket for the first 40 games of next season and keep his starting job. Honestly, if there’s one guy who I’m happy about making me look like an absolute and total idiot, it’s Fisher, who deserves sucess in this league just about as much as anyone else.”
Cavs: The Blog, June 12th, 2009.
(I am very, very, very rarely right about anything.)
So, that’s that. Lakers are your back-to-back NBA champions.
Let’s get this out of the way first:
LeBron, Game 6: 27 points, 8-21 shooting, 19 rebounds, 10 assists. Satan.
Kobe, Game 7: 23 points, 6-24 shooting, 15 rebounds, 2 assists. Champion.
LeBron did have five more turnovers than Kobe, but still. For a couple of minutes there, I dreamed about how if Kobe lost while playing like he did, the LeBron/Kobe article would have to become about basketball. The whole “Kobe is a better sports human” thing would sort have melted after a historic choke in game 7 of the NBA Finals against the Celtics.
Alas. The Celtics got tight on the road, they missed Perkins, and Kobe’s teammates stepped up. History is the propaganda of the victors (do I really have to tell you again) — in a few months, this game will be remembered by most people as Kobe’s indomitable will manifesting itself in rebounding, defense on Ray Allen, and some late free throws. Or just be another of Kobe’s five championships, each one like the last.
I know — it’s not fair. Nobody cares. Life isn’t fair. There’s no reason that being a sports fan should be. Smile, clap, tip your cap, and hope one of your favorite athletes gets bailed out the same way someday. The Kobe/LeBron thing is what it always was — LeBron fans waving stat sheets and specific examples and Kobe fans pointing to T-Shirts with rings on them. Nothing ever changes. Nothing ever ends.
As bad as the Kobe nutjobs on the winning side will be, the conspiracy nutjobs on the losing side will be much worse. Not a great game seven for people that like basketball writing to be about basketball instead of legacies and championship organs or the paranoid ramblings of sore losers.
I am extremely happy for Ron Artest, and, to a lesser extent, Derek Fisher. And Gasol, kinda. Not Sasha.
So, the Lakers surviving a horrible Kobe performance because they played gutty defense and were fine with the game becoming a war. That’s another sheet in my “I’m really not sure firing Mike Brown without a clear replacement in mind was a good idea” folder. I mean, maybe they could have waited to see how good the Celtics were before firing Brown? Maybe?
In hindsight, what was the freaking rush? What idiot big-name coach did they think was going to come and help them recruit LeBron? Do they realize that coaches, unlike young players, often have fully formed post-basketball lives that they have no pressure to leave? I mean, I guess Mike Brown’s bonus forced their hands. But yeesh, this is a royal mess.
Ray Allen: very much available for the MLE.
That’s all I have for this season. What a year. First season doing this site from start-to-finish, and after I started doing NBC along with this, first season doing basketball as a real job. Not the outcome I was hoping for this year, but the journey couldn’t have been better. Thanks to all of you for making this such a great season for me and this site.
Hopefully I’ll be able to do the real off-season work here now: rumor breakdowns, player report cards, goofy posts, et cetera. Stay tuned, campers.
I’m with you 100% on the Kobe vs. LeBron massive double-standard. But it was even a bit worse than you said; first Kobe only had 23 points, not 25. More detailed,
LeBron, Game 6: 27 points, 8-21 FG, 9-12 FT, 19 rebounds, 10 assists, 3 steals, 1 block 9TO
Kobe, Game 7: 23 points, 6-24 FG, 11-15 FT, 15 rebounds, 2 assists. 1 steal, 0 block 4 TO
So in summary, LeBron had better FG% and FT%, more points, rebounds, assists (significantly), steals, and blocks. And yet, like you said, Kobe is now the consensus “best player in the world” while LeBron was criticized HARSHLY for his “terrible” 9 turnovers and poor shooting in his final game. What a joke,
The reason the media will get away with this? The Lakers won and the Cavs lost. And now it’s time for all you who blamed LeBron and said “it’s LBJ’s fault this year, not his “great” supporting cast”, to admit you were wrong. The Celts were a great team. BUT LEBRON HAS NOWHERE NEAR THE HELP IT TAKES TO WIN IT ALL.
Where is LeBron’s Pau Gasol, who SHOULD have been Finals MVP, and who put up a near 20-20 game to bail Kobe’s lucky ass out tonight? Where is his Ron Artest to defend the other team’s best player and spare LeBron’s (or Kobe’s) legs and have a huge night in a huge game? Where is LeBron’s Lamar Odom, to give them a double-double off the bench? Where is LeBron’s Derek Fisher, to hit a HUGE 3 ball when he needs it most? And where is his Phil Jackson to calmly guide the ship with the confidence of having already won championships?
The fact is Cleveland is FAR inferior to the elite teams (Lakers, Celtics, Magic, maybe Heat if they get Bosh); it is just that LeBron is SO GOOD he makes you all think the Cavs are right there. But they’re not. Take LeBron off the Cavs they are one of the 5 WORST teams in the league. Period. Meanwhile, the Lakers, Magic, Celtics are all playoff teams easily without their best player.
So if it burns you up as much as me to think how much the media will continue to kiss Kobe’s ass over LeBron until LBJ finally gets the talent, coaching, and organizational direction he needs to win it all, maybe you can understand why it really might be the best thing for his career, and for the basketball loving world at large, for LeBron to leave.
Thanks for the great work, John. See you when the smoke clears.
Thanks for the great writing this season, John!
I don’t usually post comments, but I wanted to thank you, John, for all the time and effort you’ve put into covering my (our) beloved Cavs this season. You do great work and thoroughly enhance my Cavs-fan experience. Between Windhorst and yourself, I’m fortunate to have two very insightful writers covering my favorite team; I’m tremendously thankful for that.
Ace, I didn’t criticize LeBron’s effort in game 6. But if you think LeBron was actually playing hard and trying in game 5, you’re crazy. Kobe was terrible last night, but Kobe never stopped trying. LeBron did in game 5. For that, he will always be blamed.
Still, LeBron is better than Kobe but to the victor go the spoils.
Whole-heartedly agree Ace. I am honestly kind of rooting for Lebron to go to Chicago and somehow they get Bosh in a sign and trade. That team would have 3 LEGIT stars and a YOUNG, solid supporting cast. People say that Chicago doesn’t have the roster that the Cavs have now, but it’s the same roster that took the Celtics to the brink 2 years ago, and Rose/Noah made us look silly defensively for much of our series.
Full disclosure for those who might flame me: I’m an Ohio guy who grew up a Buckeye football fan. Not from the cleveland area so I never really had any ties and they always sucked while I was growing up so I never really developed an interest. Lebron gave me and many other Ohioans a reason to watch Cavs basketball and care about it. That contribution shouldn’t be overlooked.
I’m more of a Lebron fan than anything else, but I will still follow the cavs and root for them with or without Lebron, much moreso than I ever did before he came along. and to Rich: Game 5 was super mysterious to all involved. John Hollinger did a nice piece a while back which showed a strong statistical relationship between Lebron’s performance and the number of days rest between games. As much as the elbow has been overhyped and overblown, it does make sense with a chronic nagging injury to flare up when there’s not time to recover.
Plus, I would feel disheartened and out of gas too if the rest of the team dropped the ball as soon as I stopped playing out-of-this world basketball.
Colin,
It’s the same way for me too. Reading Windhorst and Krolik became a nightly ritual after the game. Even on off days I constantly checked this blog and Windy’s Twitter feed for new comments and posts. It’s amazing how much value the written word still has in enhancing any experience.
One last thing on the Mike Brown firing – it had to be done first of all. He had shown that, whether it be his fault or Danny Ferry’s, he couldn’t get this team to the promised land for 2 straight years, when they had the best regular season record. That is the coach’s job to find a way to find the extra gear, and he couldn’t get it done.
That’s without even mentioning his deficiencies in having a tangible offensive system or philosophy aside from “get it to lebron and stand on sideline with eyes squinted and mouth open”. From a game management perspective he fell short as well (building sensible rotations, making punctual substitutions to create or exploit matchups. And for as great a defensive coach as he’s supposed to be, the Cavs never played team defense like I saw the lakers play last night. Again, that’s part personnel, but if you can’t even succeed in your so called specialty to at least get your team to keep people in front of them, then you have to go.
Sure the cavs don’t have a coach now, but they at least have a CHANCE to find a complete coach, whereas before they had a known quantity, but most people would agree that he was really a defensive assistant coach who got haphazardly thrown into a position he probably wasn’t qualified for.
What last nights game showed Lebron is that he has to leave, because the people surrounding him on the Cavs cannot play at the level the Lakers and Celtics did last night.
The Cavs have only 2 money players that do well in the playoffs, and they’re both rotation players — Leon Powe and Boobie (who saw no time in the playoffs this year). The rest of the team are pretty much choke artists although Andy can have some moments if he doesn’t have to go up against a strong, physical center.
I’m an NBA fan. And as such I’d like to see Lebron get with some quality teammates so I can find if he’s a winner or just a wonderful entertainer.
I see no way he should stay with the Cavs. It hasn’t worked in 7 years, and it’s not going to work if he stays 3 more.
Once Lebron leaves Gilbert should think about rehiring Ferry and Brown and having them blow up the team and build an NBA team correctly.
There is no team LeBron is going to that is going to win a title next year, folks. Chicago doesn’t have the players right now. New Jersey certainly doesn’t. Lets not even talk about New York. Cavs still have the best roster out of all the teams in the LeBron running. That could obviously with a sign and trade here and there, but as of today, it’s still the cavs.
Is there any justice in the world though? Lakers win. And now the USA gets jobbed in the world cup by maybe the worst officiating decision I’ve ever seen on a stage that big? REALLY SPORTS GODS???
Well said, Howard Roarke. The Cavs as they are now couldn’t handle that series, which was evident when the Celtics pounded them. The Cavs biggest problems are in the Eastern Conference. He’s got to go to a defensive minded team with talent in order to beat Miami, Boston, Orlando, and dare I say Atlanta… maybe the Celts?? HA jk, No, Chicago.
And @Roarke again- I couldn’t agree more with your last statement, “Once Lebron leaves Gilbert should think about rehiring Ferry and Brown and having them blow up the team and build an NBA team correctly.”
@Rich: You may be right, but it’s not just about next year either. It’s about getting on a team that has a chance to win it for years to come. If you look at the Cavs roster and some of the decisions the front office has made over the years, they just are not a good fit going forward. Shaq is 38 (is he the oldest player in the league?), Z is 35 going on 90. Jamison and Parker are getting up there as well at 34. Mo Williams is the only other starter who isn’t a greybeard.
Think about this for a sec. Lebron was the youngest starter on the team when he came into the league and 7 years later, he’s still the youngest starter on the team. That says a lot about poor drafting and short-sighted roster moves. They don’t even have a draft pick this year. Everything was built to win this June and leveraging Lebron to stay to defend his title. Shaq and Z are only going to get older and slower (if that’s possible) and when that happens, you’re stuck with Andy and Hickson as your primary post presence. Yikes! They are so far over the cap that even when those guys retire they’ll be hamstrung to make any moves to replace the pieces they’ve lost.
Those guys have retired..or at least from the Cavs. Z and Shaq are no longer on the books. In one year the Cavs will be significantly under the cap if they do nothing. Like I said, LeBron isn’t winnin a title on any of those teams next year (barring a wade/bosh/lebron trio) and in the following year, the Cavs will have the money + the expiring Jamison 15 million dollar deal to do something huge, like go after a SnT for Carmello who will be a FA. Now, maybe the Cavs front office screws it up, but if we all agree he can’t win a title in Chicago/NJ/NY/Miami next year, then the following year this Cavs team COULD/SHOULD be positioned to make some big, big moves.
I think you’re right in stating that NY and NJ are not options, especially since NJ lost out on the top pick. So I think that leaves you with Miami and Chicago as his options outside of CLE. Sure he could go and play with Dwayne Wade in Miami but even if they won 6 championships together, D-Wade would have 7 ‘ships, so I doubt Lebron ends up with Wade just out of interest to his ultimate legacy and not being labeled as the Pippen to D-Wade’s Jordan.
Chicago makes a lot of sense and honestly excites me. They have some talent, and it’s YOUNG talent which will only become better over time. Maybe it’s not as good as Cleveland right now, but remember that Lebron is a huge chunk of the reason why CLE is currently the better team. Paste Lebron on their roster and I don’t think Cleveland would even sniff a win against that Bulls team. Derrick Rose is a legit top 5 pg in the league and steps UP his game in the playoffs as opposed to Mo. Noah is basically a better version of Andy, and Deng/Hinrich pretty much cancel out with Parker and Delonte.
You missed one key point. Mentality. LeBron and the Cavs obviously gave up during their chance with the celtics. As the Kobe and the Lakers were down 13 points, they never gave up and yet they came back. LBJ should move on out of Cleveland like how to KG moved out of Minnesota to win one with another team.
@ MG
There is no way Lebron would be considered the Pippen to D-Wade’s Jordan. I would love to see him in Miami and just let the Cavs start fresh. With or Without Lebron we are years away!
@Joseph: While *I* agree with you that Lebron is the better player, there are a lot of people out there who feel like it’s all about the ring count and D-Wade will always be one-up on Lebron if they join togethr and Lebron doesn’t win any without D-Wade. In the end it’s all about legacy and although I’m sure Lebron would love to play with D-Wade, in his heart of hearts, he’ll always want his legacy to be just a smidge greater than Wade’s.
Good write up, John. I think you nailed the LeBron/Kobe debate from the perspective of fans. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, nothing will change… Just rehashing the same dumb arguments.
Anyway, thanks for having me on the site this season. I enjoyed it and look forward to writing a lot more in the future.
i swear, do you people follow the cavs at all? they turn over their roster with an amazing frequency. yet, so many of the comments on here act like the same team from last year will be the same team come novemeber of this year! get real!
and i posted this in another thread but it bears repeating to the people who thinks the bulls are so great. first, they don’t have a dominant big. noah is NOT a dominant big. tell me what the last 20 years of nba champs have. and rose dominates the ball and LBJ wants too. plus, they have a rookie mike brown-redux as coach and an owner who is a spendthrift, certainly compared to gilbert. their bench is super weak as well. LBJ could maybe get to the finals with the bulls in 3 years or so but he could do the same and maybe (probably) better with the cavs, plus make more money, save his image, etc.
let me summarize here: there is no CLEARLY superior basketball option for LBJ out there. the cavs are better or equal to any other situation. and all things being equal, LBJ stays home. it doesn’t take a genius to figure that out…
Ace, I’m with you 100% until that last part. I’m not even from Ohio but I still want to see LeBron stay, for karmic and legacy purposes. Guys like Pierce and Kobe have shown that it’s possible to win after sticking it out with the same team through bad times. There’s nothing about the Cavs organization that would preclude that chance. As opposed to, say, the Hornets (CHRIS PAUL GET OUT AS FAST AS YOU CAN).
And it’s easy to exaggerate the quality of the “supporting cast” either way. Yes they’d be a bottom 5 team without LeBron. But some of the guys add a ton of value as a complement to a star like him (I’m thinking Varejao and Mo to a lesser extent). You’re right that more talent is needed.
Also, I don’t understand the Bulls hype. They’re an exciting young team as they are. But what makes people see a good sidekick in Derrick Rose? Does he play “d”? No. Is he a good distributor at the point? No. Is he an efficient scorer? No. He has potential as a scoring point guard, with a knack for the spectacular/galvanizing play. But I don’t think he has anything to offer bigger stars like LeBron or Wade, and he has a long way to go to reach their level himself. Noah, on the other hand, could take any NBA team to the next level.
As for the Kobe-LeBron stuff, I know that not too much has changed. It just kills me that the Cavs/NBA couldn’t prove all the Kobe idiots wrong in a way that would be meaningful to them.
nice work this year john. i hope that as you rise in the sports writing world you will find the time continue to keep up this blog :) this has become my daily cavs fix
@ KJ
The fact that they turn over the roster twice a year is more of an indictment than any sort of commendation. MacDonalds has a real knack for employee turn over too but it doesn’t mean that they make a gourmet burger. I’ll give Ferry credit for trying to dig himself out of the hole that they were in from the Larry Hughes and crew signings, but really they just went from bad players to slightly less bad players.
Oh and news flash on the front line issue you raised. The Cavs don’t have any dominant bigs either. Shaq is done and Z is done. That leaves Varajao and Hickson as your main center guys. Both are too weak/under-sized to handle center duties. Noah is basically a better version of Andy and Derrick Rose is a top 5-7 pg in the league already at 21. Lebron needs someone who can legit create his own show and Rose can do that without a doubt.
@Rich
I will accept that it will be tough to win a title in any of those destinations, but only if you admit that he likely isn’t winning anything next year in CLE either. I admittedly don’t know that much about the minute rules involved in the salary cap, but I looked at a chart and it looks like the Bulls have fewer guaranteed dollars owed in 2011-2012 than the Cavs. Even if they pick up all their team options, they’ll only have $35.75 mil committed. The Cavs on the other hand will have to pay $35.68 mil in guaranteed contracts assuming Mo picks up his player option plus a $2 mil team option for Hickson.
So basically, Lebron could waste another year here and hope for the best in 2011-2012 while the Cavs try to make another complete roster overhaul, or he could sign with Chicago, probably come closer to contending next year and have relatively the same amount of flexibility in Chicago in 2011-2012. I mean this completely unsarcastically, is there something that I’m not factoring in here to make the numbers match up?
I agree MG, I don’t think he is winning anywhere next year unless a very unlikely (and it is unlikely despite how the media plays it up) 2nd max contract player joining him in either chicago or Cleveland. Thats it. Two max contract players on that New York roster might be good neough to get like the 3rd or 4th seed, but they aren’t winning a title. The only way I see him winning a title next year is if he signs with Chicago, and then Chicago pulls a sign and trade for Bosh w/o giving up Noah or Rose. Possible, yes. But not likely.
I agree with KJ though, people are so severly overhyping that Bulls roster it’s stunning. We act like Gasol is Shaquelle O’Neal in his prime or something. Like I’ve said before, the guy will be more than lucky to make two all-star games in his career. He is not Pau Gasol. He is not even kevin Garnett. Then after Rose the rest of the roster is trash, especially if Deng is dealt. I really odn’t buy into the product that is being sold to me that Chicago is just a LeBron away from dominating the league. If the roster was so great it would have produced more than 40 wins the last two years.
My point is, if the rosters are even up, and the chances of winning a title are even up…then wouldn’t that mean Cleveland actually has an edge because of A. hometown and B. more money? There just isn’t that awesome location for him to go this year. Maybe if Beasley was instead OJ Mayo then Miami could have a case. But he isn’t, and that roster is terrible too.
I think what’s changed since Lebron’s game until now is that the Celtics at the time were viewed as over the hill vets who shouldn’t have won that series. Then they took down Orlando in possibly more convincing fashion and nearly took down the Lakers. Ultimately the Celtics deserved to win it all, they just didn’t because they ran out of gas slightly quicker than the Lakers.
As such, the Celtic-Cav series really does need to be re-evaluated and the Celtics given more credit than the Cavs faulted. Lebron’s media blitz during the finals brought more condemnation that should be separated from the playoff exit, but that requires more nuance than the commentariate doesn’t possess.
Unfortunately, in this media world such re-evaluations usually don’t occur. If only someone from a major media site like Pro-Basketball Talk could be reached to re-open the books…
Slight problem with all of this: Lebron was on the team with the best record in the NBA for two straight years.
It’s an unwritten NBA rule as well that you cannot complain about a player’s teammates if said team wins 60 plus games in the regular. That should be enough for a superduperstar.
@Gil Meriken
“It’s an unwritten NBA rule as well that you cannot complain about a player’s teammates if said team wins 60 plus games in the regular. That should be enough for a superduperstar.”
WOW. What a genius argument. But did you ever think that THE REASON THE CAVS HAD THE BEST RECORD THE LAST TWO YEARS WAS BECAUSE LEBRON WAS AMAZING?!? Idiots like you who repeat this same tired argument seem to (moronically) think that you can take the Cavs record as a reflection of how good his teammates are. But you cannot infer that so long as LeBron was putting up 29-8-8 a game!
If you have ever learned a shred of statistics, you would know that to evaluate how good the Cavs are minus LeBron, you need to CONTROL for his presence. The best data we have is the Cavs record with LeBron (amazing) versus the Cavs record in the few games a year he did not play, for example due to injury at the end of the regular season this year. THE CAVS HAVE A TERRIBLE RECORD WITHOUT LBJ. Yes, the team is “built around him” but their appalling lack of talent showed when they LOST THE LAST FOUR GAMES WITHOUT HIM and have an overall terrible record without him over the years. Conversely, the Lakers, Celtics, etc. have played very well when Kobe, Pierce, Garnett, etc. have been out.
Please try to learn some statistics and logic before you post anymore tired, cliched, disproven arguments.
@ Gil — regular season EWA does give some credence to Ace’s statements. The gap is shockingly large.
@ Ace — Play nice with the Silver Screen and Rollers. There’s never a good reason to stop being classy.
@Ace Statistics and logic. Wonderful. I have a degree in mathematics, so I’m going to assume that I probably know enough about both to understand them quite well.
And yes, you can take the Cavs record as a measure of how good a team is, including Lebron.
A 60+ win regular season team should have enough pieces to win it all.
@MG,
If the Bulls sign Lebron, all that cap space goes away. That’s what you’re missing.
@Ace,
So, the Cavs win 60 plus games because of Lebron, but lose in the playoffs because of his teammates? I still don’t get it. The Cavs are built around Lebron’s strengths. Last season, they employed three of the top 15 3-point shooters. So, Lebron made all those guys awesome during the regular season, but mediocre to poor during the playoffs?
The Cavs had a defensive-minded powerfoward who is the best pick-and-roll defender in the league and makes four or five 50/50 plays every game. But he was battling an injury during the Celtics series.
The Cavs had a deep, deep roster. The main reason the Cavs lost this year was because too many pieces needed to be put together during the playoffs. Against an experienced team like the Celtics, that’s not going to work. The Cavs were versatile, supremely deep and had the most dominant player last season. You’d all be singing a different tune if they had been able to play together. Before Shaq got hurt, they were rolling 33-10. Once Jameson came on board, they lost three straight before going 13-2 with Jameson sans Shaq.
It was just a matter of too many pieces needing to fall together in an inordinately amount of time. There was no team deeper than the Cavs last year. Perhaps their starting five wasn’t as elite as some other starting fives, but their whole team most certainly was. Mike Brown worked magic, that Cavs ownership obviously didn’t appreciate, by winning with a whole bunch of different lineups.
@MG, Ferry has turned over the roster because he’s always been in fear of Lebron leaving. And he’s done a great job of steadily improving the talent every year around Lebron. Anyone who thinks the Lakers had a better team than the Cavs is crazy. Jordan Farmar, Shannon Brown, Sasha Vujacic, Luke Walton and Fisher wouldn’t crack the top 8 or 9 on the Cavs. Lamar wouldn’t start. Hell, Artest wouldn’t start on the Cavs.
Lebron caught a tough break when Shaq got hurt and the team just didn’t have enough time to gel. Given a full season under Mike Brown with this same group slightly tweaked, would have been the best course of action…oh well, thank god i’m a lakers fan.
The problem is that these numbers don’t exist in a vacuum. What I saw last night was a far superior defensive game than I’d seen in a long, long time.
And to be 100% honest, I’d rather a player go balls to the wall and do everything in his power to try and win, as opposed to the guy I saw essentially give up on his team and resort to trying to protect his stat sheet by any means possible to once again try and avoid blame for his team’s shortcomings. I saw no purpose in Lebron’s game since “you know what” supposedly happened, and that’s the biggest reason why he’s been so maligned among the Cavs faithful. He gave up, no two ways about it. I think many people saw through Lebron’s facade and saw him as a player who ultimately cared too much about his image in a win or loss as opposed to actually winning. Those triple doubles at the end of the day are ultimately meaningless.
We can point to the stats all we want, but at the end of the day, they’re different circumstances and don’t mean much.
Comparing Lebron’s game 6 to Kobe’s game 7 is almost a case of apples to oranges.
You saw two teams playing with so much desperation and defensive intensity. The Celtics played the best defense I’d seen them play since the big 3 got together.. The Lakers played better defense than I’d probably ever seen from them in the 4th quarter.
It was beautiful, yet ugly at the same time.
Kobe nearly shot his team out of the game, but stepped out of the way and drew the defense, while setting up others in crunch time. That was the ultimate sign of his maturity. He knew he wasn’t scoring well so when he had the chance and the defense was off balance, he went in to draw the fouls on the Celtics big men.
Anyways, as for the Cavs, if we sign Lebron, I don’t see many differences in personnel. Still we might not have enough to build a contender, and the “Lets give the ball to Lebron and get out of the way” gimmick isn’t going to work. By the time he grows up and stops trying to hold this city hostage, it may be too late to find a good, long-term replacement at coach. I can only hope this team doesn’t fall apart at the seams in the next few weeks.
- E
The hurry to fire him was that they saved $2mm or whatever it was.
@Ace @ John – I want to clarify that I don’t mean to imply that because I have a degree in math that I’m correct – far from it, I simply find it humorous that someone else would imply that there is a scientific answer to a sports opinion argument. Even basketball “statistics” as you are applying them aren’t just statistics, they’re your interpretation of the data, which is an opinion.
Also, Ace’s ad hominem attacks “idiots” and “moronically” only emphasize his condescending tone and reveal his belief that he is somehow more logical than other people.
Thanks for the SS&R shout out!
Great job singling out one game out of all 14 years and another out of all 7 from two players and say “LOOK WHAT I FOUND! ALL THE PROOF I NEED!” This is the objective journalism we have all been looking for.
Also, John, are you sure you are hoping to write about basketball? Because if stats is all that matters, why play the game at all? I really think you need to take a moment and look inward and recognize how your bitterness is affecting your judgment.
It’s OK, though. Most sportswriters take years to put their personal feelings aside. Some never do.
In my opinion, the Cavs “supporting cast” is really not as terrible as people try to make them out. At the least, the jury is still out. I would really like to see a full season with a healthy team and a coach with a offensive plan to really evaluate them. Honestly, not sure anyone can beat the Lakers with their bigs. Cavs would have had a shot with Shaq and Z of 2008 but not sure they would have done the job this year.
Probably with no Lebron the Cavs are a lottery team, but that doesn’t tell me much. Most teams, if you remove their best player and don’t replace them, will be pretty bad. The Celtics and the Lakers have great teams and are obvious exceptions. I think the no-Lebron stats are skewed by the fact that this team never learned to play w/o Lebron (in large part due to MB), and so, when he was out, they were pretty much clueless. I have no idea if Lebron will leave. I can’t fault him if he does but I would have loved to see what the team could do given some time to develop chemistry.
I’m pretty sure there was more bitterness in your post, Daniel, than in an entire page worth of Krolik writings.
On the LeBron holding the city hostage, it only happens because we let him. If the franchise ( Dan Gilbert) actually believed we the fans would stick around after LeBron left, there would be no hostage situation. This team would be better equipped. But it has never been about LeBron walking away. It’s been about us as fans walking away. It really makes us no different than him if/when we give up on the franchise just because he did.
Thanks for comparing my bitterness to that of an actual sportswriter who’s supposed to have a certain cold of ethics in their writing, Rich, I’m… honored? Maybe?
I’d like to offer a more objective comparison. When both the Cavs and the Lakers were down 3-2 to the Celtics and needed to push for a game 7, here’s the stats between Lebron and Kobe:
LeBron, Game 6: 27 points, 8-21 shooting, 19 rebounds, 10 assists, 9 turnovers. Satan.
Kobe, Game 6: 26 points, 9-19 shooting, 11 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 turnovers. Champion.
Or even another comparison when both teams lost to the Celtics where their superstars had an amazing statline and his teammates didn’t show up:
LeBron, Game 6: 27 points, 8-21 shooting, 19 rebounds, 10 assists, 9 turnovers. Satan.
Kobe, Game 5: 38 points, 13-27 shooting, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers. Champion.
The fact that John Krolik failed to put those turnovers on the actual statline that’s glaringly obvious and only mentioned in a “by the way” format afterwards is pretty much proof of how bitter he is. But like I said, the guy’s in college. I hope that with his talent, he could mature and become more than a fan blogger as shown here.
Please don’t try and say that the Lakers, sans Kobe, would make the playoffs. Or, you’re going to tell me that Sasha or Shannon Brown at the two for an entire season is good enough for 47 to 50 wins? Kobe creates so much for everyone even if it doesn’t end in an assist. There’s nobody else on the Lakers who can create scoring opportunities for himself and others. Odom, maybe once every six or seven games. Artest? He’s oftentimes a trainwreck on offense. Farmar can create for himself, but others?
Of course, you’ll all say Gasol. But this notion that Gasol is the best big man in the game is ludicrous. Watch him when he gets doubled. What you’ll see is a guy who takes too long to set something up and turns the ball over way more than a number one option should when that second defender comes to trap. Gasol gets his assists mainly after he gets a pass. He’s great at reading without the ball and then making a quick, decisive, skilled play once he gets it. But giving him the ball and letting him create on his own usually ends in a fall away jumper or a weak pass out to a wing with little time on the shot clock. Play this out over the course of a whole game, let alone a whole season, and you’ll definitely have a lottery team. I love the Spaniard, think he’s one hell of a player, even thought highly of him back from his Memphis days, but if you watch him day in and day out, he can’t be a number one option. There’s a reason everyone in Memphis hates the poor guy. And it’s the same reason that every single coach gameplans his defense around stopping Kobe Bryant.
Ace,
All i have to say to your rant is the cavs with their so called lack of supporting cast 2 years in a row have sat atop the eastern conference, ahead of the elite teams you listed. You don’t have the top record in the league by being a bad team. Lebron is not so good that he wills a bottom 5 team into number one overall, otherwise Wade would be doing the same.
Lebron’s choke job isn’t remembered for game 6….it’s the games before that! Just give credit where it’s due. To winners, not the stat sheets
Hello all,
I am not a Cavs fan, I just linked to this post from ESPN, but it seems to me that this Krolik guy is so sore and biased he can’t see the forest from the trees.
Am I the only one who saw Lebron humiliate himself in the Celtics series? Am I the only one who saw him get physically and mentally taken by Rajon Rondo in as close to a one on one matchup as those two teams could provide? Am I the only who remembers every single non-Cleveland based expert in the country call Lebron’s game 6 performance the worst triple double in recent memory? Lebron caved mentally, no ifs ands or buts.
By the same token, am I the only one who saw Kobe’s Godlike series against Phoenix to put his team in the position to be in the finals? Am I the only one who saw him set the emotional tone for the finals in the first game and then lock it down in the 4th quarter of the last game? Am I the only one who thinks that the most poignant stat of all, BY FAR, is the simple fact that 2 years running, Lebron has had the best record in the league, and the MVP, and still had to watch Kobe from his couch in June?
Its funny because I recall a Sports Illustrated article from 2002 or early 2003 that said basically, “well now that Lebron James has declared for the NBA Kobe Bryant’s time as the best player in the league is over.” Its now coming to the 2011 season (2011!!!) and we’re all still waiting for that to happen.
this means nothing, you can’t say anyone player is better then another based off this one game. if anything, you can look at it as though kobe got his team to a position where he was even able to play a game 7 for the nba finals. you cant all of a sudden disregard what either player has done by just looking at this one game comparison. this comparison gives you nothing. pocking out these individual games to compare tells you nothing about who is better, i mean ron artest was the best player on the court in game 7, should we say he is the best? no, comparing these individual games means nothing.
Here are some shooting lines from Lebronze the last couple of years of playing Boston in the playoffs, I found 8 games out of 13 in which he shot under 40%….
2 for 18 (that’s 11 percent folks)
6 for 24
5 for 16
7 for 20
9 for 23
7 for 18
3 for 14 (wouldn’t be so bad if he hadn’t also LeQuit on his team)
8 for 21
Oh yeah, so let’s now call Kobe out when he’s now a back to back champion? Please. Let’s also call Michael Jordan out when he struggled in game 7 of the 1998 ECF vs the Pacers and also had to try and get to the line and crash the boards. But let’s give credit where credit is due… the Boston defense, some of the best the league has ever seen. When you’re getting double and triple teamed by these guys it’s going to be a major challenge to shoot a high percentage.
What strikes me as the fundamental difference between these two talents is how their teammates conform to the personalities of their leaders. This is important when the going gets tough. Like Andrew put it above, Kobe sets that emotional tone. All business. No clowning around. Limited antics. Scrape and fight. And people want to blame the elbow? Please. More like, the inability to mentally get yourself up to play at a high level. Kobe with the mangled, broken fingers, bum knee, gimpy ankle. Hitting 6 game winners this year, giving his team homecourt in the Wild Wild West where the 8 seed won 50 games. And at the end of the day, the true champions are still standing.
But when Cleveland got punched in the nose by Boston? LeQuit time. No heart. And it was all too predictable. The regular season MVP award is now a joke. For all the Clevelanders defending Lebron, i can’t wait to see them defend him after he leaves.
Am I missing something? Wasn’t game 5 everyone’s issue with Lebron? Where he threw in the towel and quit on his team? Bad nights happen, especially against the Celtics defense, and even though those 2 stat lines aren’t pretty; they both show effort and a will to win. (It just didn’t work out for Lebron that night). The biggest difference is, the previous game 5, – Kobe didn’t quit on his team.
P.S. I generally love your work, I just think this time you’re twisting the history to support your argument; where to me all those two lines show is that the Celtics defense is extremely effective and if you want to give your team a shot at winning you need to contribute in other area’s. If anything you would be better off comparing LBJ’s game 5 to Kobe’s past phoenix series…but I would reference blog Silver Screen and Roll and their argument to disprove the that Kobe quit on his team.
This debate about who the general basketball player is just silly. In order for Lebron James to even come CLOSE to Kobe’s legacy, he’ll need five rings, and he’ll need them without another legit superstar. Say he pairs up with Wade. We’ll not only hear the “Wade is better than Lebron”, but also the “He can’t win without Wade.” That is a FACT. I mean, look at what the Kobe haters say all day long. Now, Lebron James also puts up the best numbers in the regular season, averaging almost a triple double. That is insane. Kobe has never been able to put up those numbers. In fact, almost nobody has, except Oscar Robertson. Not even Michael Jordan. So for the Lebron stat junkies, you can keep in mind that it’s not the stats that count, the will to win counts even more.
Now, another thing. Lebron needs to step up his intensity. The reason that he doesn’t have any rings is not only because of his teammates. Yes, of course the teammates need to step up, and they did that for Kobe in game 7, but that’s all they look at. Game 7. You need to look at the general picture. Kobe carried them through the series for 6 games, prior to that. When it mattered most, he won the game. Game one. Very important game. Kobe put up 30. game 3. Another huge game. Kobe put up 29. game six. Down one in the series, and Kobe puts up 26 and 11. Add to that his leadership and determination to lead the Lakers throughout the entire playoffs, his hard work, and admirable love for his team. That is what compells your teammates to reach up to new heights, and in games 6 and 7, that is what happened. Now, i don’t even think we NEED to talk about Michael Jordan, because he is, hands down, the best player ever to play the game.
Let’s look at Lebron. He is the superstar on this team. Cavs fans can’t just go and heap all the blame on his teammates. His teammates didn’t show up either, but did he? Were the rest of the Cleveland Cavaliers relying on him for leadership and the determination? Well, they were relying on him to win, but he was never the inspirational spark that Kobe was to his teammates, and Jordan was to his, and the list of superstars goes on and on and on. Most fans will admit that Lebron did play a bad game 5. but. he wasn’t exactly playing well for the other games the Celtics lost either. Part of them losing this series is his teammates, and part of it is himself. He wasn’t the dominant player that he was throughout the regular season. Of course, you’ll mention the injury. That would be a legitimate excuse for most. But people are comparing him to Kobe Bryant, who was playing the season with 2 busted fingers, a bad knee, a tweaked ankle, and a bad back. So stop whining, Lebron fans. I didn’t see Lebron do it, so you shouldn’t either.
I have no doubt that Lebron will one day be great. But he’s not as much of a fighter yet. He hasn’t battled through pain like the greats have. The difference between Lebron and other legends is this: The other greats overcame injury, and Lebron was overcome by it. Let’s just look at a few examples. Kobe 09-10 season, Jordan’s flu game, Isaiah Thomas playing with a sprained ankle, Steve Nash and his eye.
When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
There’s no defending Kobe’s last game. He took bad shots and ultimately was bailed out by his teammates. Don’t get mad at Kobe because his teammates stepped up. Be mad at Cleveland’s GM: LeBron James.
(LeBron has carte blanche in Cleveland. He didn’t resurrect the franchise. Resurrect means “to bring to life again.” He is the life of the franchise. Accordingly, and despite what Dan Gilbert says, LeBron has his finger (if not his whole hand and arm) in everything the Cavs do. Dan Gilbert is richer because of LeBron James, and from a business perspective he’d be foolish not to consult what is easily his largest commodity.)
LeBron had the coaches he wanted, the players he wanted, and this wasn’t an issue when he was “disappointed” that Mo Williams wasn’t an All-Star. It wasn’t an issue when Mike Brown won coach of the year or when LeBron was lifting up those two MVP trophies.
Stop being frontrunners. Nobody was questioning Mo Williams, et al. when the team was racking up W’s from late October to April. They were just passengers in a car speeding towards a championship.
LeBron’s teammates (and coaches) get ZERO credit when things go right, so it is completely deserving for him to be eviscerated when things go wrong.
Windhorst was right. The effects from game 5 of the conference semis will ultimately condemn LeBron for the remainder of his career unless he wins big, wins often, and wins handily. Sorry LeBron, but no matter what the circumstances where behind the scenes, if you can’t come out and give an explanation then you don’t deserve sympathy. Win or shut up.
Oh great. You compare a LeBron game 6 vs. Celtics to a Kobe game 7 vs. Celtics.
Perfect analysis.
One day after a chip you are being negative. This signifies something significantly wrong with your psyche than anything to do or any truth about LeBron or Kobe.
Celebrate Champions. Dont denigrate them 1 day after the fact.
Context. Lebron’s iffy performance came after two games where he ranged from so-so to awful. Any criticism for game 6 was born out of people expecting (or hoping for) a monster redemption game. Moreover, Rondo was clearly the best player in that series. And yes, losing didn’t help.
Kobe would’ve gotten murdered if the Lakers lost, and he still did by folks like Bill Simmons and Skip Bayless. But his iffy game came off of two great games.
This really comes off as sour grapes.