0027 – Aaron Craft gets Benched
2013-03-26
It’s Bench Week here on C:tB. And what would any in-depth discussion be without Tom, Nate, and me discussing Aaron Cra…err…putting in our two cents vocally.
Nate was kind enough to lend his voice to the marathon ‘cast, so he’ll be posting his article later this week.
On today’s podcast, we discuss the individual players that make up the Cleveland Cavalier’s bench. We touch on Shaun Livingston, Marreese Speights, Luke Walton, CJ Miles, Tyler Zeller, and Wayne “Duke” Ellington.
And of course, there’s Aaron Craft…
As always we’re on SoundCloud at – https://soundcloud.com/cavstheblog/0027-aaron-craft-get-benched
And on iTunes at – https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/cavs-the-podcast/id528149843?mt=2
Enjoy!
Mallory, shooting 42% on wide open 12 footers and layups is not an impressive number. And it sure as hell isn’t evidence that he could score when he absolutely needed to. The college game is a lot different than the NBA game. Craft doesn’t just use lateral movement and smarts to make stops. He uses very physical play and less spacing allowed by the NCAA rules. And hand checking is far from a small part of his game. Tom, you used quotes. That usually signifies you are taking, verbatim, something someone else said. I’ll wait for the full citation. The… Read more »
Steve – they are not verbatim.
Cols, you write that on a typewriter?
The real question is why we are arguing if Craft will declare for the draft this year. It’s doubtful he’d go in the first round and he obviously values his education. He was valedictorian in high school and is an academic all-american. with a 3.9 GPA. There’s no reason for him to leave his BMOC status a year early to be in the D League or at the end of bench. You can’t get those years back. We all had fun in college but Craft is certainly on a different level. Why would he leave that? The right mix of… Read more »
“The Collusion era” !
Craft will be cheap, work hard in practice, and play a role on a 2nd squad for an NBA team. He’ll get a couple garbage layups in transition or dribble penetrate when the opposing guard is not paying attention. No one will care if he fouls 3-5 times a game if he does enough to disrupt the opposing offense in limited minutes. He’ll be on a team because there is a hard cap and teams like Miami that are strapped need cheap smart players. Teams that are tanking need these players too. I’m sure he’d be ecstatic to be compared… Read more »
No, Craft playing 1 minute does not validate your argument. He will probably be on some NBA roster for a year, maybe 2.There are a bunch of guys just like him. No need to draft one of those guys.
I’d say his ceiling is Dr. Oz
well played, $
Aaron Craft will be a great pro. He’s got the smarts and he’s got the drive to succeed. It will take him probably 6 years to figure things out but by the time he’s 28-29 he’ll be pro doctor.
Demetrius – Your entire analysis seems predicated on assuming that Craft will be drafted high and expected to start. I certainly don’t foresee either of those things happening, and I doubt many others do either. Craft is the perfect late first/early second round player – he has a near elite to elite NCAA to NBA skill and, with some work, could be passable at everything else. Considering the junk that comes at the 27th pick or later, doesn’t taking a chance on a potentially elite defender with a paid-for pick seem reasonable? As for the Snow shooting argument, the idea… Read more »
Mallory– Eric Snow was the classic “starter that you always want to replace.” He couldn’t climb past Aaron McKie in minutes on a team coached by Larry Brown. His career was extended by 5-7 years based off of playing with the most dynamic offensive talents in the league who could support a drastically unbalanced offense (Bron and AI.) Most importantly, this all happened SIX years into his career. That’s the learning curve for a limited player like that to prove worthy of big minutes. Also, using shooting % as a comp there is just idiotic. Snow, Conley and Kemba Walker… Read more »
Demetrius and all the other people losing it about the Craft talk – I think some perspective is in order. First – I initiated the debate because I had had enough of people taking to twitter to declare absolutely with full 100% confidence that Aaron Craft would never step foot in an NBA locker room unless he became a towel boy. My thought was: “wait what? The same Aaron Craft that ‘polarizes’ NBA GMs and scouts…that guy has zero chance to play in the NBA?” From that flowed my argument. And then I would say: “I don’t think it’s crazy… Read more »
My point in address you, Demetrius, is that I agree with some of your arguments. I was the first person I ever noticed to compare Craft to Eric Snow. It’s a pretty valid comparison actually. Snow was better at some things, Craft at others. Similar size, similar role, etc etc. And so it became harder to swallow this idea that Aaron Craft is exclusively a college player and essentially ineligible according to the high court to compete at the next level. And then I’d point out that Eric Snow played over 24 thousand NBA minutes. if Craft plays 1 NBA… Read more »
To put this into perspective, Snow’s career shooting % would slot him at 24th this year, between Mike Conley and Kemba Walker.
Guys, Snow was a career 42% shooter and, when you take out his Cleveland years the number goes to above 43%. In addition, he had two years where he shot around 45% (one over, actually) and his PER was regularly around 15 for his best years. He did all this while being a great defender, a smart player, and a model leader. Steve, the evidence that Craft can stop NBA players is that he stops NBA caliber players regularly in college. Say whatever you want about the college rules, but Craft uses lateral movement and basketball smarts to stop players.… Read more »
“[Snow] could score when he absolutely needed to”
What? Before, it was easy to dismiss your Craft love as fanboy nonsense. Now, you’ve delved too far down the rabbit hole to get back out.
And then the assumption that he will be able to slow them down. There is little evidence that under the NBA rules that he will even be able to do that.
MF
You think that Aaron Craft can slow down anyone at the NBA level?
Yep
Anyone who think Craft is going to be anything in the NBA is an idiot.
Demetrius – A few things. First, you realize Eric Snow was a starter for MANY years in the NBA right? And had a ton of success as a great defender who could score when he absolutely needed to. Second, can anyone not named Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Iguadala, or Allen stop Rose/Westrbook/etc.? No. If Craft can even begin to slow those guys down, then he has a ton of value. With regards to Speights, the 6 mil for two years was the number I had initially thrown out, but I actually think he’s probably played himself into a lower deal. I… Read more »
That Aaron Craft talk is so absurd. It’s hilarious to hear people Mallory just gush and gush over the equivalent of Eric Snow (lets not be afraid of the cross-racial comparison guys.) Craft’s jumper is super broken and part of the superior spacing in the NBA (as opposed to college) is due to guards who collapse at the last minute and generally stay within challenging range of a shooter, no matter how bad he is. Also, those forays to the hoop with the “no-lift layup” get swatted into the floor in the NBA. Those are all stylistic things that AC… Read more »
I’m not in love with Shabazz. Someone tell me why he would be a good pick. He’s got obvious attitude and maturity issues to get through. He can definitely score buckets but so can a lot of guys coming out.
Oladipo with #5 and Gobert with the traded up Lakers pick (or Isiah Austin… I know he’s an underachiever but I believe in Byron). Unless we can swing a deal for Cousins
1. Nerlens
2. Shabazz
3. Porter
My first pick order would be Porter, Noel, Bazz, trade back, Len. Those top 3 could change around. First round of Otto Porter at 3/4 and Kelly Olynyk at 15/16 sounds about as ideal as possible … Then again sNoel and Glenn Robinson 3 or Dario Saric sounds good too.
I’d really really rather not go into next season with the same SF situation as this year.
Few things in life more appealing than a poor man’s Hasheem Thabeet.
Korey – right? Or the way Chad Ford described one scout talking about Rudy Gobert – why would we take a guy that could become as good as Alex Len over Alex Len.
THIS DRAFT!!! (shakes fist)
Great podcast guys.
Thanks, Cory
I’m okay with multiple guys in the draft. The interesting thing about this draft is the Cavs could get Noel with the first pick or the fourth depending on the draft order. It is impossible to project where guys go until the lottery (May 21st I believe). Noel and Porter are probably the best fits, but I’d be okay with Olapido, McLemore, or Bennet with their top pick. I just want them to take the best player regardless of position with the possible exception of Smart. I see Bennet as a more athletic Paul Milsap. I can’t imagine him being… Read more »
Amen, Ben. Who are the two guys with the most potential? Gobert and Noel. Why would you take the one with knee problems? Of course Gobert could be a poor man’s Hasheem Thabeet, too. He’s a high risk, high reward player to be sure.
$ – I have had Gobert as my darkhorse for a little while now. Good wing span and (supposedly) good athletic numbers. Yes, he needs to add some serious muscle to his frame…but ultimately, his length alone makes him a bit of a force to reckon with.
My pick is Oladipo. I know we already have a SG but I just don’t see anyone else that compares to his work ethic, athleticism, and motor
$ – I’m going with Anthony Bennett – even though the Cavs already have a power forward.
Yeah it’s unfortunate that a lot of the “lottery picks” are already out of the tournament (shabazz, marcus smart, anthony bennett, otto porter). Would’ve been nice to see some of those guys go a little further to see if they’re the real deal.
Maybe it’s time to start looking overseas. Anyone heard of Rudy Gobert? He’s 7’1″ with a 7’9″ wingspan but only 235 lbs (and looks like it). DraftExpress has him at #9 now.
This is a very hard draft to get excited about
Of COURSE they did. “Only six teams in the 3-point era have joined the exclusive 10-point club, which is reserved for only those who have a double-digit point differential. And the Thunder are currently one of them. Four teams eventually won the title, with the 2008-09 Cleveland Cavaliers (plus-10.3) being the only team to buck the trend.”
Tom- Yes, McLemore looked bad in the NCAA tournament thus far. Scary. Still, he’ll likely go #2 in the draft. Who’s going to go before him? I like Oladipo a lot better than anyone else in this draft, but wow this a weak draft at the front in. Dion really might have gone #1 in this draft. Hopefully this is a deep draft but I’m not sure of that either.
I think this will be the most difficult draft to project in recent memory. I just read all of Chad Ford’s Big Board and it’s depressing.
Mallory – you actually make a great point in regards to Livingston in your latest comment. Having him on the bench with Ellington and another SG shouldn’t give up much defensively as he can switch to the SF for defense…and because of his heady passing skills, the scoring options are there. If we were to draft a big like Noel (early with the Lakers pick being a wing) or Len (with the Lakers pick and a wing being our Lottery pick) or sign a big (like Al Jefferson) you could move Andy to the bench. A second unit lineup featuring… Read more »
Also, $ –
Thanks for the shout out on the Ellington front. It’s an interesting situation the Cavs are in with Ellington/Waiters/Kyrie/Livingston and, if they draft a McLemore-type, that player too. Essentially, none of those guys, beyond Livingston sort-of, have the size to play SF. Versatility at the swing is completely underrated, and it’s something the Cavs are completely missing. It’s also one of the best arguments for keeping Livingston around – he’s actually a serviceable SF.
“Now, here’s the thing: Players who get March Madness bumps deserve them. Ichniowski and Preston also examined what happened to players after their draft days. They looked at whether the guys made the NBA; how many points and assists they had in their first year and over the course of their careers, in the regular season and the playoffs; and the chances that they became superstars (defined as making three or more All-Star teams). In every case, the group that got draft boosts from the NCAA tournament played better than those who didn’t. If anything, teams undervalue March Madness as… Read more »
$ – The Cavs have won 22 games. I’ll continue to be unhappy until I see Ws. I think that’s a reasonable assessment. You can take small victories from a good TT game, or a crazy Dion dunk. But in order for the Cavaliers to move from bottom dweller to playoff team these players need to perform at high levels night in and night out for an entire season. Do I think that’s possible? Yes. Do I think it’s immanent? No. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. The TT to Zeller comparisons are unreasonable. TT is a crazy athletic, raw… Read more »
Wow, a long podcast but I like the in depth talks. Mallory makes a good point on Ellington. He’s a good player but where exactly does he fit on this team? I think some of it depends on the draft. With McLemore and Oladipo being probably top 5 picks, there’s a real chance the Cavs draft a SG and that will take away all of Ellington’s minutes. I’d like to keep him but the range of $12mill for 3 years is a lot for a guy that’s only played well for 2 months. I like him a lot but he’s… Read more »
BTW who cares about logjams. It kept coming up in the podcast. Injuries happen…especially to the Cavs. Plus we’ve seen what a disaster it is to NOT have players at a position. The Cavs need a real bench PG. They need a myriad of forwards. They can make flexibility in 2014 via trades for one of the 100 #1 picks they are owed.
Wow, the CJ miles 3pt stats are hilarious.
I couldn’t believe that when I saw it. I had a hypothesis that he was better when the game was less in the balance. But I couldn’t have created those stat to more perfectly characterize that if I tried.
Bill –
When have I ever hated on Dion? When he was taking bad shots and I pointed it out???? I actually like Dion a LOT. But at the beginning of the season, his shot selection was horrific.
Likewise, I never felt strongly about TT beyond saying he got blocked a lot. And he did.
Glad to hear Mallory’s given up on Zeller and wants to trade him. Should mean Zeller will have a nice season next year since Mallory also hated on TT after last year, knocked the DIon pick, and hated on Grant for not overpaying for bench players in the offseason which ultimately allowed for us to get Speights/Ellington/1st rounder.
Props to Aaron Craft so far in the tournament. He’s not an NBA player but he’s a darn good college player. He’ll stay at OSU for his senior year, be a practice player in the NBA for two years then go on to be a great doctor. Nate made a good point on Livingston. He’s a useful player if he’s playing along two perimeter shooters and a big that can shoot. As evidenced by the Heat game, I’d argue one of those perimeter shooters also needs to be able to handle the ball (i.e. waiters). But, filling in all those… Read more »
$ – if I am overvaluing him it is because I believe he can continue the production trends he has set as a Cavalier. My point in all the journeyman/injury talk was to point out that I don’t believe injuries made him a journeyman. Using that logic – something else made him a journeyman. So yeah, $, he’s a journeyman. If your backup pg can guard all the different backcourt positions and hold his own against bigger wings (allowing you to switch without mismatches) and post an average to above average PER – I don’t think that’s some indication you’re… Read more »