1st Quarter
Wizards came out firing. They made their first 4 shots, including 3 Martell Webster bombs. In a surprise move, Byron Scott yanked all the starters (sans Livingston) barely 2 minutes into the game! I’ll take it as an anti-tanking statement. This team is going to fight through injury – and Byron is not afraid to keep players on a short leash.
His power play worked, sort of. After falling 11 points in the hole, the Cavs answered with an 11-2 run of their own, trimming the Wizards lead to 2. And then they fell in love with the deep ball, and went stone cold for another 3 minutes. The Wizards ended the quarter with all the momentum, and at the end of 1, it was: Wizards 33, C.J., Wayne, and Shaun: 20.
2nd Quarter
Tristan Thompson got the Cavs started off right in the second quarter. After a feisty o-rebound and put-back dunk, he found Boobie for 3 before dropping in another 2 points in the paint. Dion blew by his defender and threw down a vicious tomahawk hammer, and the crowd finally woke up. And then the Cavs put the Wizards to sleep and performed inception on them. The Wizards endured a 5 minute spell without a point while the Cavs scored at will with an assortment of baskets – mostly easy looks in the paint. Dion and Tristan really made amends for the first 3 minutes of lackluster play that got them benched. Dion attacked the rack, (presumably he asked them “How can I go back!?” [in the game] and they made him watch the Spirit of Mufasa scene while on the pine) while Tristan just bullied his way into free throws (which he made) and his usual arsenal of paint buckets. Tyler Zeller started grabbing boards and knocking down short jumpers. Alonzo Gee threw some icing on the 2nd quarter cake and the Cavaliers, after spotting the Wizards 11 points and being down 13 at the end of the 1st, went into the locker room with a 1 point lead: 50-49. Well done Byron, getting the young guys to respond to the initial deficit.
3rd Quarter
Since the initial benching, Tristan played like a man possessed. He finished a super strong move in traffic to start the 3rd quarter. And then it was time for Alonzo Gee button mashing from beyond the arc – it’s Super Effective! x2! The rest of the quarter featured some high-level basketball from the Cavs. Tristan was a beast on the boards – stealing a bunch of would-be Wizards rebounds, and the Cavs moved the ball very well throughout. They started jumping passing lanes on defense, and it led to some fast breaks. Turns out, Wayne Ellington is pretty good at running the break too! I love that guy.
Luke Walton is a very self-aware man. Midway through the 3rd he stole a pass in the open court and was still ahead of a trailing pack by the time he dribbled into the key. And the he turned around and looked for help because he worried someone would chase down his layup attempt. It looked ugly but it led to 2 made Ellington FTs – so no harm no foul. Well done, Luke, sorry there’s no assist for you there. Later, near the end of the quarter, Walton received a pass at the elbow – wide open. Naturally, he still looked to find a better shot for one of his teammates. His pump-fake pass got the already sagging Wizards to flinch even more – getting a rise out of AC and the fans. At that point, Luke had to shoot it, I’m not even sure the Wizards were still in bounds. He netted it. Prediction: Luke Walton will be the greatest over-60 basketball player on the planet. In 8 years or whenever that happens. Daniel Gibson hit a nice jumper after curling around a Walton pick – and the Cavs finished one of their best 3rd quarters in recent memory. 76-65 at the end of 3.
4th Quarter
The Wizards came out with an extra edge to start the 4th. The Cavs only basket in the first 4 minutes was off a sweet Luke Walton interior pass to Wayne Ellington after Luke faked an up-and-under with the shot clock about to expire. It was a great defensive possession by the Wizards and better offense by Luke Walton. The Wizards trimmed the lead to 5 before C.J. Miles closed his eyes and threw what looked like a basketball into the hoop. Yep, it was the ball – someone let C.J. know. The Cavs have 2 of the most feast or famine players in the NBA in C.J. Miles and Mo Speights. Speights is even more unusually scalding xor freezing than Miles. Tonight, he was cold – at both ends of the court. Fortunately for the Cavs, the Wizards couldn’t hit any shot – no matter how open the look. Waiters hit a smooth jab-step jumper from the elbow and followed it up with a silky spin move through 2 defenders and a finger roll finish. Alonzo Gee hit another 3, and followed it up by barely grazing the rim on the elusive (for him) corner 3. Nine attempted 3s tonight for Gee, and almost all of them were wide open. And he’s been cashing in. The Cavs continued their habit of running out on steals and rebounds, and Waiters got a nice transition dunk off a screwball pass from Shaun Livingston. Waiters followed that up with another trip to the line after a late whistle that looked like he just lost the ball. I noticed about 3 calls tonight that Waiters “earned”. They could have gone either way, but a few months ago, they were most certainly not going Dion’s way.
I know it’s almost impossible for bball junkies to say anything nice about John Wall without pointing out some glaring weaknesses. So I’ll just say he played a very effective game tonight – relentlessly pushing the tempo at every opportunity and making plays in the open court. The Wizards chipped away the entire fourth quarter and cut the deficit to 3 with 45 seconds left in the game. Livingston made a poor decision to feed Dion in the high post as the Wizards immediately trapped him. Livingston got the ball back and had to make something happen with the clock winding down. He threw up a hard runner that rimmed out but was able to get his hand in the rebound and force a jump ball. More importantly, he WON the jump ball (out-jumping Nene!) and the Wizards were forced to foul. That’s a revenge jump ball right there. Freon sank both freebies to give the Cavs a 5 point edge with 13 seconds remaining. Out of the timeout, Waiters lost Chris Singleton on a quick backdoor cut and fouled him on the bucket. Singleton missed the free throw and for a second it looked like the ball might bounce to the Wizards, but the Cavs secured it and Dion got fouled. Freon sank another 2, making amends for his rookie mistake on defense, and the Wizards had 6 seconds to score at least 5 points. They didn’t and the Cavs won.
Final Thoughts
-Before the Waiters dunk in the 2nd quarter, about 100% of the Cavalier fans I follow on twitter made some gleeful tanking comment. And then the Cavs methodically dismantled the Wizards. It’s really fun to be a Cavs fan these days. I remember the LeBron years, where a victory like this would leave me depressed that the Cavs didn’t beat a crap team by 30 and sit all their starters in the 4th quarter. For this Cavs team, if they lose – it’s not too hard to think #tankstrong or copious buckets of pingpong balls or imagining the FA class of 2014 or whatever you want, really. But I’m glad the Cavs won the game. I’d like to see most of these players in the future and I want to watch them grow together.
-I think Chris Grant should sign Shaun Livingston to a 4-year deal and be done with it. (Grant’s not going to eschew flexibility with a big-name FA, so why not lock up Livingston – he can be had for a bargain) He’s a winner, he fills a void, and they should reward him – he’s saved this season in my opinion. Tonight, he iced the game with a jump-ball. The rebound careened to two Wizards and Livingston used the tiny moment of confusion to throw his fingers in there and earn a call. And then he out-jumped a center to seal the victory. He, much like Ellington, plays within himself and provides steady offensive execution and some decent defense with his length.
-Much respect to Byron Scott. He got his young team to respond tonight. He yanked Thompson and Waiters way before their normal exit routine and they responded with a vengeance. Dion got to the line 14 times, and assumed the role of primary scorer in the 4th quarter. Tristan was in full beast mode during the 2nd and 3rd quarters. He finished with 13 and 14 on only 8 shots and grabbed 6 offensive boards. At least 3 of those he had no business getting – they were essentially steals. Gotta give Byron credit for that ballsy move. His starters could have sulked – and they did the opposite.
-Boobie Gibson played pretty well tonight. He only got 16 minutes but he was active. He got his hands on some loose balls and finished +11 in 16 minutes – much like the Herculoids, he fights through screens very well.
-Tyler Zeller had a few moments in the 2nd quarter but didn’t seem to be on the court much in the 2nd half. Mo Speights had a very poor game. Hopefully he’ll bounce back quickly.
-Alonzo Gee led the Cavs with 15 shots. Not a great recipe for success but he had 4 bars of 3G service tonight – I’m sure the Cavs’ll take it.
-Nice balanced attack on offensive for the Cavs. The ball didn’t stick tonight. There weren’t any dribbling fests either. Six Cavaliers dished out at least 3 assists. That’s really awesome.
-Nice game for Dion. He only made 5 of 13 shots and took a couple head-scratchers but he was very active after the initial benching and finished with 6 boards, 3 assists, a steal, and 20 points. Ten of those were from free throws. Well done, Dion – you remembered. It seems like he’s starting to get a little more respect from the refs – which is a welcome sign. Hopefully it incentivizes him to attack even more. In the post-game interview, Dion seemed kinda pissed that the Cavs started off so poorly. He said he respected what Coach Scott did (the benching) and that he knew how he had to respond. I really loved when he said this with a scowl on his face: “We can’t come out and play nonchalant. We’re not good enough to get away with that.” Good attitude, Dion. And good win.
Enough with the tanking talk already. Do you realize they aren’t tanking? How about a new rule for CtB, no use of the the word tank or tanking or anything like that. They are clearly not tanking. They’ll lose games, yes, but they are not tanking and haven’t been since the 2011-2012 season. This year they have not been tanking.
For a bad shooting Dion game, he played damn well. Especially loved his drive and dish. I tweeted this and I think it’s especially true – is there a better guard to teach Dion the nuances of being an attack-the-rim player than Livingston? He’s also excellent at the drive and dish, plays great D, and is damn good at adjusting his shot.
All of Speights weaknesses were on full display tonight.
And there is just no chance Grant will sign LIvingston to a four year deal. Two MAX.
Livingston four-year-min-deal…Walton, too!!
If Dion nets 20 ppg with 52% TS and 3:1 A/TO for the rest of his career, with 6 rebounds and a steal…I wouldn’t be angry. Make it 55% TS and he’s an All-Star.
I am travelling…and slightly drunk…kind of like Ricky Davis with the Cavs
I like Livingston. I really do. He’s an ideal back up guard for this Cavs team right now. No sane GM would sign that guy to four year deal. We are talking about a guy with a horrific injury history. His contract would look Boobie terrible fast. Livingston has played over 60 games twice in eight years. He’s a vet minimum guy if you sign him to a multiyear contract. Maybe you pay a little more for a year. I hope he’s on the team next year, but long term I doubt he’s a guy you can count on.
I’d actually like Tristan to get more plays ran for him. They aren’t tanking, but this year is still about development.
Cory,
4 years, 6 million for Livingston…everyone can see that.
Tom,
You write like a 4th grader that sniffed too much glue.
hahaha Kevin
I think two years for Livingston would be just fine.
I am impressed with how you guys do these write ups basically in real time. good stuff. Gotta feel good about Thompson, Waiters, Miles, and Livingston. all guys who can be part of things moving forward
Loved the move by Byron and loved how the young guys responded. Dion can do this and more every night if he wants to. Keep scowling Dion and bring the edge!
I’ve been a proponent of Mo Speights, but he really looked out of sorts tonight. A few more like this and he might actually pick up his option. Livingston and Ellington on the other hand are still awesome. I don’t know about a 4 year deal, but hope they at least lock him up for a couple.
Loved the Ricky Davis shout out Kevin!
Also, I think Cols used up his quota of the word tank and tanking tonight, so he should be cut off.
David Zavac spearheading the FTS invaaaasion
We aren’t tanking because we have a rough schedule ahead, so we might as well try to win the ones we can so that it doesn’t decimate our players morale. We might realistically head onto a 7 game losing streak because of the teams we are coming up against. We’d be lucky to win 5 games the rest of the way.
But tonight’s game was hard fought. I like how Tristan stood his ground against Nene who is pretty underrated. Dion missed a few easy buckets at the rim but love that he was relentless on his attack at the rim. He scored 12 points in the final 7 and a half minutes of the game. This bodes well for our team going forward because it seems like we have two players that can both close out games. That’s a very dangerous weapon to have especially when we start our playoff push next year.
I like Shaun Livingston at 6 million over 4 years only 2 of those being guaranteed though. I don’t understand why just a few weeks ago you other commentors were ready to lock up Greg Oden for 8 million 2 years on the like 2% chance he is any good, but you have a quality backup guy who has proven he can play and can be had at a discount but you scoff at it. It wasn’t that long ago Livingston was supposed to be the next Magic Johnson, I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t mind having that coming of the bench.
Does anyone else see 6 straight losses in the next 6 games? I sure hope so (unless we snap the Heat win streak), I don’t think I’m going to fall to number 6.
Don’t overrate bench guys. Just some advice. They are bench guys who were available for next to nothing for a reason.
I was at the game last night, a few observations:
1. The Q was dead, no energy in the arena.
2. John Wall is FAST FAST FAST, I can’t believe how quickly he gets into the lane and runs the break. He was the best player on the floor tonight.
3. The Cavs offense looked stagnant and terrible for long stretches, I feel Dion really got bailed out by the calls today.
4. Winning this game was worse than losing it, WA will take Noel if they can.
Noticed this article about Livingston.
http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/cavaliers-notebook-livingston-happy-to-be-out-of-washington-starting-for-the-cavs-at-point-guard-1.380736
4 years, 6 mil makes sense. Maybe a team option on the last. However, I can see a team like the Lakers, Boston, or SA (teams trying to win now) offering more using the MLE. With Casspi, Gibson coming off the books, Speights probably not returning, and Gee not guaranteed beyond next season, the Cavs could offer more w/o hurting their cap space. If they offered 3 yr/6 mil, TO on the last, I would support that. That’s probably as high as I would want them to go.
Interesting that you pointed out that article, I was going to do the same. The part that stood out to me was: “He has rejuvenated his career in Cleveland and will likely receive interest from other teams. He has made it clear he will play for the highest bidder next season, and that probably won’t be the Cavs.”
If Livingston plays really well the rest of the way then some team is probably going to overpay him to be their backup, hopefully it isn’t us.
The Cavs have tried the bargain/D-League guys at PG and it never worked out. Livingston seems to thrive in Byron’s system (which is like saying he climbed Everest) so why not offer him 4-for-6? I can’t see the Lakers offering MLE for him with 3 other PGs signed beyond this season.
3 Year contract, 3M per
DaveR
Duhon is not guaranteed. Morris is a qualifying offer. Blake is guaranteed, but I don’t think they are sold on him as the backup. At any rate, if it’s not LA it could be another team. The Nets seem to have no problems throwing around money.
If we lose Livingston or Speights it’s totally OK. Backup guys are backup guys. Grant found these guys for nothing, why shouldn’t we think that he can do it again? If they won’t sign for what the Cavs deem an OK bid, just let them go and replace them with other guys you can find on the scrap heap. Overpaying for mediocre bench guys is like overpaying for a closer in baseball.
Cols,
Because he didn’t for years.
Tom, I generally like your ideas but 4 years for Livingston is crazy. The guy is the definition of injury prone. I don’t think he’s ever proven he can stay healthy over the course of an NBA season. He’s already a rebuilt knee. No way you sign him for more than 2 years (and I think it should be more like 1 year + 1 year team option). You cannot risk him suffering a career ending injury next year, then having him on the books for 3 more years.
And Tom… don’t drink that punch that Mallory and Nate are drinking… it’ll have you start saying crazy things like signing Livingston for 4 years or trading away all our draft picks for Jared Dudley or giving Iggy a max deal… stay strong Tom!
Nothing is crazy at the right price. Shaun Livingston 4 years at the league minimum would be considered a steal based on his play this season. Shaun Livingston at 4 years and more than 4 million dollars a year would be too rich for my blood. But in the event that Livingston chooses some job security over a rich deal – why not? Check out Livingston’s bball-ref page. Post (horrific) injury – he’s been the definition of a journeyman. 10-day contracts, league minimums, 1 year deals, waived twice already this season. Everyone keeps citing the lack of games he’s played – but I’m not aware that post 2008 his missed games has anything to do with his knee injury. It’s because he was waived by teams and not picked up until later in the season. This season is another example. When he’s been employed, he’s been on the court. I haven’t exhaustively researched this – perhaps he was waived because of concerns associated with his knee injury – I don’t know. But it seems like he’s just been trying to get himself back to respectability since 2008 and maybe, with the Cavs, he’s fulfilling that goal – at the ripe old age of 27. Since 2010 he has played in plenty of games: 73 out of 82 games in 2010-2011 until he suffered a bruised back that caused him to miss the last 2 weeks of the season. In the lockout shortened season he played 58 out of 66 games. This season, he was waived to start, picked up – played every game, was waived again, picked up again, and played every game. The Cavs badly need: a backup point guard, length in the backcourt, and veteran leadership. Livingston gives you all 3.
Look I understand (and respect) the hesitation to dole out 10 million dollars a year to guys with ? marks – Speights, Iguodala, or trading young guys for old guys: the phoenix thing that still has a lot of you on inhalers. I do not agree that it’s crazy to start building a foundation around the core group of young guys. Does anyone realize that Dan Gilbert was paying 6, 8, 10, 12 million dollars a season for a chance at draft picks? It should be obvious that 1.5 to 3 million dollars a season for Shaun Livingston won’t 1.) affect the Cavs’ cap flexibility, 2.) bother Dan Gilbert much. True, if he gets hurt and never plays again then it’s 1.5-3 million dollars a season wasted (of someone else’s money). And it is probably more likely that something like that would happen to him than say, Jeremy Pargo. But can’t the reward far outweigh the risk at the right price? He and the Cavs are thriving together – and while I don’t think he’d give them a “hometown discount” I think the Cavs might be more willing to give him some contract security than say a team he hasn’t played with (and doesn’t know how he’d fit) – and who knows maybe he really enjoys his current role.
At any rate – I’d like to see Livingston back. I see no point in getting into the minute details of what contract he deserves. Undoubtedly, unless I propose that he pay the Cavaliers to play here, enough people will think it to be delusional or whatever. I’ll stick to:
1.) I like his game
2.) He fits well on the Cavs – see above
3.) Since his rookie deal expired he’s never made more than 3.5 million a season
I wouldn’t call Livingston injury prone. He has had one injury albeit a horrific life-threatening injury. He is not injury prone in the sense of the word that Kyrie is injury prone. That being said I’d like to have a legit, top-tier backup for the chance that Kyrie has to sit out 10 or 12 games next season during a playoff run.
Part of the reason that Livingston is a castabout is that his game doesn’t really fit what modern offenses want from a point guard. He’s not a three point shooter. He’s not an incredible penetrator. He’s a really good passer and ball handler who gets most of his points out of the post. Someone made the comment on here a few weeks back that the second unit for the Cavs basically runs a triangle. I haven’t studied this enough to know if this is true, but the hypothesis seems sound. The triangle works because because the Cavs have multiple post up options and guys that can pass well out of the post, Livingston, Walton, and Speights especially. Additionally, Livingston works because he mainly plays with 4 shooters. Walton, Speights, Ellington, and Miles. Most other teams aren’t going to run the offense the Cavs do on the second team, or surround Livingston with so many shooters. The Coaching staff deserves all the credit in the world. They didn’t force the players to adjust to the offense, they adjusted the offense to the players and put them in the best position to win.
I like Livingston too, and I think he’s exactly what the Cavs need long term. What happens with Livingston all depends on what the Cavs 2014 plan is. If the plan is to have as much cap space as possible, they will offer a team option deal for 2014 or a non-guaranteed 2014 contract. They may look at overpaying Livingston in 2013 (see my article from Tuesday) to keep him for that year. I highly doubt the Cavs make a long term commitment to him, though. I think the Cavs probably try to overpay him in 2013 and then try to go over the cap to sign him to an exception in 2014.
Livingston’s solid play shows what teams can do when they’re not committed to long term guaranteed salary. Teams have the flexibility to sign guys from the waiver wire and put them in positions to succeed when they’re not compelled to give playing time to players who have high salary numbers. That being said, it’s extremely rare to pick up a free agent mid season that is as good as Livingston has been. While I hope he is a long term part of the Cavs, I’m tempering my hope.
I like Shaun a lot, but it won’t take anything more than 3 years at the minimum guaranteed to keep him. We could cut it to two years and add a few bucks for next season and that would get him too. He would be thrilled to have a contract that was actually longterm. That does a lot for the psyche…. I don’t see us keeping Mo however. (assuming he opts out). Since his initial strong play, he as been drifting further and further from the post and his poor shot selection is dropping his numbers back to his career norms. (he has always taken bad shots). I love his effort, and it’s nice when he gets hot, but he really isn’t more than a 5 mil a year guy at best. I think they will take a gamble that Zeller gets better next year, Andy can play and we can pick up a decent big in the draft or FA for cheaper to be our 4 big.
Nate -
Literally any team could’ve signed Livingston, as it was the league minimum.
Nate- I think you’re right and I think that’s what the Cavs should do- if Livingston proves he can play at a high level and stay healthy, then pay him for it down the road. He hasn’t demonstrated that in his career thus far, with the exception of this half season with the Cavs. That doesn’t deserve a 4 year contract.
Livingston is not going to take junk money for 4 years. I’m sure he thinks he can still play and he wants to get paid. He expected to come in the league, be great and get paid. He hasn’t gotten his big pay day (in NBA terms) and he won’t sign for a million a year for four years. It’s wishful thinking, but not going to happen. If we offered 4 years/$12-16 million, he might do that. But that’s just crazy for a big injury risk.
Let’s not get carried away. Livingston is playing well but he’s just a backup PG. He ranks 54th for PER among PGs this year. He’s replaceable. I’d rather put money towards a big.
And by putting money to a big- I’m not talking about Speights. He can go.
Bill
I think you hit all the points exactly right on.
Count me in as someone who thinks we need a solid backup PG for the 10-20 games that Kyrie is going to miss each season. I would love to sign Shaun for cheap but if its not in the cards then why not go for a Luke Ridnour, Jose Calderon or someone similar?
I know this team needs big men, especially a big guy in the middle to anchor the defense. But Kyrie is proving to be injury prone, and that means that the backup PG spot is pretty damn important. If Livingston can maintain his level of play and doesn’t mind being a (mostly) backup, then lock him up to a 3-4 deal for reasonable money. If he wants a serious payday, then you have to move on.
Same with Speights…I like how he fits with this team but his inconsistency makes him unworthy of more than 5 or 6 mil per year.
No mention of the fact that Dion now regularly takes over 4th quarters? Really? 20 comments about Livingston? Really?
Livingston runs the offense well, plays good defense, he seems to be a calming leadership prescence, and recent games have shown that between He and Dion we have a good B option back court, if Kyrie is out. Its easy fall into the trap of attaching dollar amounts to those attributes and to say well those things means he’s worth X mil over Y years, however the market dictates what’s he’s worth, based on who opts in or out Livingston could a valuable commidty or an after thought. I think he should be at the top of our pirority list and short of really over extending ourselves, this is the type of signing the Cavs need to make in order to provide continuity and go forward in building a playoff team and hopefully a contender.
I think Jose Calderon is a target for this offseason. He fits the mold of a we need. Not sure if we get him since he’ll probably get offered a starting job but definetly someone I expect the cavs to target
Anything that over 6 mill total is way too much for livingston
Thats total So 3years 6 mill would be risky
Vesus- I agree we need a solid backup PG but we don’t want to backup our injury-prone PG with another injury-prone PG. That defeats the purpose.
AdamFL- Good point with Luke Ridnour. I think Calderon is going to be a starter for Detroit for a while, but these backup PGs are a dime a dozen. Lots of backup PGs are reasonably priced and solid players. A short list:
Nate Robinson ($0.9 mill)
Darren Collison ($2.3 mill)
Jerryd Bayless ($3 mill)
Jason Kidd ($3.1 mill)
Will Bynum ($3.3 mill)
DJ Augustin ($3.5 mill)
Steve Blake ($4 mill)
Luke Ridnour ($4 mill)
Andre Miller ($5 mill)
We don’t need to risk giving a long contract to a backup who hasn’t proven he can stay on the court.
Mallory,
My point about Livingston wasn’t that he was a minimum salary guy, it was that the Cavs didn’t have to give any player minutes ahead of him just because of that player’s contract. Because they had a low payroll outside of their core, they weren’t beholden to any expectations of playing time.
Wow guys! The underappreciation of Livingston here amazes me. I liked Scott’s concept of trying to teach the team his style of offense by playing Walton early on this year. That experiment looked like it failed miserably until they added Livingston and Ellington, both of whom actally understood what Luke had to offer, and they immediately gelled into a nice unit. Outside of Jason Kidd and maybe Andre Miller that list of vagabonds posted above would just bring back the chaos that existed prior to SL and Wayne. Does anybody think a rookie PG is going to be savvy enough to keep that second unit humming? I’ll even suggest that Ellington looks like a different player only because of the chemistry with SL and Luke. Even Kyrie hasn’t even scratched the surface of what he could learn observing and playing with that current second team. Breaking that current unit up could set the Cavs rebuild back another year and possibly lock Kyrie into a world where all he ever knows is playing isolationist hero ball. At some point Byron Scott has to draw a line in the sand and demand that the team keeps some veteran who understand what he wants and, as such,are real assets.
You may note that I haven’t really oversold, Speights and Miles, two players I also like. They are both replaceable ball stoppers, who can shoot/score as far as I’m concerned. What Livingston, Walton and Ellington have is a lot harder to replace.
Jag, you’re on a roll today.