Ouch.
That one really, really hurt. Like bad breakup hurt. Like getting ripped to shreds by your boss hurt. Like finding out you have bed bugs hurt (don’t worry, I’m clean.)
After leading by 22(!) off of a crazy shooting night from Mo Speights, the Cavs got COLD (and I mean C-O-L-D COLD) from the field, while doing their usual lets-not-play-d thing. And, surprise surprise, they lost.
On today’s podcast Tom, Nate, and I discuss the Cavs’ 102-97 loss to the New York Knicks. We also discuss the current make-up of the team, Kyrie’s D, TT and Tyler’s ceilings, and how to best improve.
As always we’re on SoundCloud at – https://soundcloud.com/cavstheblog/0026-the-problem-is-melo
And on iTunes at - https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/cavs-the-podcast/id528149843?mt=2
Enjoy!
Man I’d really like to see Tristan get more shots, especially in these games where either Irving or Waiters is out. He’s efficient. Let him go be efficient with more attempts.
Gee, follow dion’s actions and drive/pass 90% and shoot 10%.
Ellington, you are excused from tonight, from the sole fact that I don’t remember seeing u do anything meaningful in the 1st half.
thompson, be more confident in yourself
walton, you just earned yourself another year in the league over the last month. congrats on vet minimum
miles, follow gee whos following dion’s actions. you have speed, quickness, ability to drive. cop out 3s. drive/dish pick/roll, make something happen besides shooting contested 3s!
speights, next game you overestimate your skills based on the first 1.5 periods tonight. lots of missed shots in your future
gibson, get out. u have a personal issue/flu/practice too often and don’t play. had a horrid turnover tonight, the other wasn’t so bad except for you are a GUARD, expected to GUARD the ball. all shots missed. every shooting stat% is down for you. it was good, but our times have come to part ways gibson
OK we need a clean look at a last second game-tying shot. What kind of play do we draw up to free one of our SEVERAL marksmen fot the last shot? Perhaps something similar to SVG’s brilliant inbounds play that set up Shard’s heartbreaking dagger a few years back? Naaahhhh, just throw it to Kyrie at the top and maybe he’ll catch it, break the defender’s ankles and nail a contested 30 footer…So crazy and unpredictable, it just might work. Oh wait, the opposing coach, the players, the commentators and even the cheerleaders totally expected that. Once again, great job coach.
Looking forward to hearing this. Is it just coincidence that these seem to only go up after losses where you guys might need to vent?
Last week’s podcast was after a big win over the Bulls, Demetrius!
I read this game very simply: When 3 of your top 11 players are out (Andy, Zeller, Waiters), and you’re having to play the end of your bench against a good team, you’re going to lose. Why would anyone be surprised by that?
If Zeller and Waiters don’t recover soon, you’ll need to get your collection of tank pictures.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Oh wait…
Dave: the Cavs beat two teams without Kyrie Irving and those teams had combined to defeat the Cavs the last, I dunno, 20+ times? But the Knicks ending their 10 game losing streak at the Q after Carmelo Anthony left the game with the Cavs up 22 points is…..”why should anyone be surprised by that”. Color me slightly surprised. Also the Cavs were well rested while the Knicks lost last night to the Heat.
It was a disappointing loss – the Cavs had a lot of positive factors in their favor even if they were missing Waiters and Zeller.
EvilGenius – was that your takeaway from listening to the podcast?
Given that only 4 games separate the 3rd and 11th positions in the lottery, it’s hard for me to get upset about losses like this.
@Nathan – true. Every loss is more ping pong balls right. There’s always a silver lining.
The Cavs have shown all year that they struggle keeping an even keel during the high points and low points of game–i.e. they’re best players are barely old enough to drink. It sucked to watch, but hey, at least Utah lost another heart-breaker tonight.
Agree on cashing in on the assets–as much as I like watching the players we draft grow, this is a superstar league where you need to use assets to acquire superstar talent. If this were a videogame and we could simulate some seasons then that would be great, but I think we’ve got to draft 1-2 more rookies in the first, and start swapping picks and marginal young players and assets for solid NBA grade athletes and defenders. Just don’t trade me.
And I really think we should consider looting the body of the (Nut)Sacramento Kings–it can’t just be the Rockets.
Yeah they are getting pillaged!
First loss (probably since Lebron left) that actually hurt. Sucks to be at this point in the rebuild. Good enough to compete with the best but rarely good enough to beat them.
A discussion I had with the boys yesterday: What would it take to get Chuck Hayes in a Cavs uniform?
I don’t listen to the podcasts because Mallory is just so over the top (see “cut ties with Zeller” after less than a year). Every win and every loss is a new high and new low for him. Zero ability to keep perspective on the goals of the season. Whatever.
The Cavs lost a game to a much more experienced, better team while missing multiple starters. Life goes on.
‘the Cavs beat two teams without Kyrie Irving and those teams had combined to defeat the Cavs the last, I dunno, 20+ times?”
No. The Cavs have beaten the Raptors twice in a row now.
Rich FTW. My point, if it’s possible to get past my egregious error, is that the Cavs have found ways to win games when not at full strength. So why does the lack of Waiters/Zeller predestine the Cavs to a loss? That doesn’t make sense.
And I’ve seen like 12 people now point out that the Cavs were short handed. That’s fine. But while you are clamoring for Mallory to have perspective – how about some perspective on the Knicks? They played last night and they made up that 22 point deficit without Carmelo.
It’s fine, Rich, if your recap of the game would have been: “The Cavs lost a game to a much more experienced, better team while missing multiple starters. Life goes on.”
No one is telling anyone how to feel about the loss. Heck, if you want ping pong balls, why not – losses are great. If you’ve seen everything you wanted to see out of Kyrie/Dion/Tristan/Zeller then yeah – who cares what actually happens on the court.
Austin Carr sounded devastated last night. Lots of the players were really upset postgame. I’ve seen people on Twitter and even in these comments that felt like last night’s loss really hurt.
If you don’t care – that’s fine. Why does it matter if blowing a 22 point lead “sucked” vs “who cares”? You should listen to the podcast, Rich, at least the game-recap part. (but probably skip the end if you aren’t a fan of “over the top-ness” as I sorta melted down)
Ellington is probably better in smaller doses. Role players are role players for a reason, that’s their ceiling. Waiters really has become a difference maker on this team already. I don’t think Dion gets enough national praise and the plain journalists didn’t start dealing his improvements until this week. If Harrison Barnes put up the numbers that Waiters does, he’d be proclaimed as a future superstar. If Waiters produced what Barnes does he’d still be labelled a bust. David Thorpe can’t just say something good about him without getting his snark on.
I still think next year is the leap year, but the most important year for this team is probably 2014. That will be a fulcrum offseason where they go all in towards contention or become the Price/Daugherty era Cavs II. Grant is going to have to make some serious long term decisions in 2014. Who do they extend and who do they move? The cap flexibility will be gone in 2015 no matter what plays out. Kyrie will get the max and take it and possibly the Rose max. If Tristan can develop at his current rate he’s probably going to be a max or near max player as well. All of these kids won’t be on the team in two years. No matter what our predispositions are towards Lebron, you leave that door open if it’s possible. I could be wrong but I always though that Lebron would become more of a PF as he ages and loses his agility. Unless you can trade for another star, I think the best course is to draft the two best players available this year and see what three or four of the draft picks make sense to extend long term as the core of your team. Hopefully then you make a package for a trade of the guys who don’t fit long term.
The podcasts are getting a lot better. Good work.
I agree with Tom that the Cavs timing their ascent is key. That’s why I disagreed with the Gortat/Dudley trade idea, but enough about that. It’s important to be patient with assets (like the Rockets) and not blow assets for the chance to be mediocre (like the Wizards).
Seemed like ball movement became non-existent in the 3rd quarter and they were settling for jumpers. Walton was trying, but the lanes weren’t there and I think his passes were being anticipated a little.
Good work on the podcast as usual guys.
As far as the waiting on LeBron debate, I think it’s something the Cavs have to do. If there’s a chance to add the leagues best player, I don’t see how they can pass that up. The Cavs are in a position that they can continue to add pieces to the team and still keep the cap space open to sign him. You can thank Chris Grant for that. I believe Nate said the same thing. For that matter, they should want to make the team more attractive to LeBron. He may not want to come back to a 25 win team after next season. That being said, this is the off-season to make a significant move. Center should be the teams top priority, whether draft or FA.
I’m still not sold on this “cashing in the assets” maneuver. It’s great if it happens, but who is the target? Houston pulled it off because there were two known situations (Howard and Harden) where the team had to part with a superstar for one reason or another. What situation like that exists now? The only thing I can imagine is Philly wanting to recoup something for Bynum in a sign-and-trade. If that happened, I shudder to think of Tom’s wrath…lol
Just finishing the podcast. Great job. Grant seems pretty shrewd with his negotiations over the past three years. He operates from a position of power. He has an owner who is willing to spend. That’s a weapon that 20 of the leagues other GMs don’t have. I’m okay with Gortat and Dudley but you could get them for basically nothing. Phoenix is finally hitting the tank zone. They might be the first team to gun for Wiggins.
You guys might have brought up THE trade target in the podcast…Marc Gasol. Memphis is shaping themselves into the Hawks of the Western Conference. They are at the luxury tax doorstep and aren’t willing to go over. They don’t have any young tier altering talent on the way. Conley has peaked and might be the 11th best point guard in the league. ZBo gets older everyday and I can’t foresee a scenario where they get out of the second round of the playoffs the next two years with their current roster. If you are packaging Zeller, cap filler and multiple first rounders I’m hoping you can get Gasol.
I have to take issue with the comment, “the Price/Daugherty era Cavs II”. This is said as if it’s something not to strive for. If the Cavs don’t come up against the greatest player in the history of the NBA, then who knows what happens. They were playoff contenders before the Jordan moments, and they were beat. It doesn’t mean that they were incapable of winning, they just happened not to win. It seems if your assertion, Cory, is if they can’t win a championship, then they shouldn’t even bother to field a competitive team. Part of it is just luck and persistence. Look at Dallas in 2011. If they’d have listened to their critics before the playoffs or before the finals started, they wouldn’t have won. One doesn’t know whether one can be a champion before one tries, but one can certainly fail to be a champion by never trying. I resent the implication that the Price/Daugherty era Cavs weren’t in “contention.”
Rich, as usual, is correct. And he’s also stealing my material!!!! Joking, Rich. But keep up the good work of keeping these guys honest.
Thanks Jon, and yeah – everyone is on the same page – no one wants to be mediocre – just some people think that happens with trades/fa, others with draft picks. I’m of the thought that the Cavs have enough flexibility now to choose their portfolio however they please – which is a good position to be in.
If the Cavs could land Marc Gasol that would be a coup. Thanks for listening Cory/Scuzz/Jon, and as always, for providing such entertaining and insightful comments. You guys make this fun.
@ Cory Hughey
You’re right that Memphis doesn’t have any young talent coming in, but they should be able to stay under (or near) the tax threshold with the trades of Rudy Gay, Speights, Ellington, etc. Still, if they could pull it off, that would be huge.
Now you’re putting words in my mouth. There is a difference between being a contender and competitive. We don’t know what the current squad will become, but I sincerely doubt that the goal of Gilbert and Grant is to be a competitive team that gets out of the second round once in the next 8 years. If that is the result, we’ll have a fun time watching them. We’ve all been watching the past couple years. I will watch either way. I’ll still take vacations to Cleveland just to see them in person.
The NBA really only has four teams or so in any given season who can actually be a contend for the title. The Price/Daugherty Cavs were contenders for one season. I liked that Cavs era team. They were likable, but flawed. Emrby built an 80′s team in the 90′s. They weren’t athletic enough to defend the wings. They were well balanced and never had a superstar and that’s as far as you can go generally without one. They were competitive, not contenders. We can always look back on that team and wonder if they never made the Harper/Ferry trade what they could have become. That trade at least gives us the ability to wonder. No player on that team made the Hall of Fame and there are valid reasons they didn’t. They are all in the Hall of Very Good.
Fandom isn’t about the destination, it’s about the ride…At least for us.
Now you’re putting words in my mouth. There is a difference between being a contender and competitive. We don’t know what the current squad will become, but I sincerely doubt that the goal of Gilbert and Grant is to be a competitive team that gets out of the second round once in the next 8 years. If that is the result, we’ll have a fun time watching them. We’ve all been watching the past couple years. I will watch either way. I’ll still take vacations to Cleveland just to see them in person.
The NBA really only has four teams or so in any given season who can actually be a contend for the title. The Price/Daugherty Cavs were contenders for one season. I liked that Cavs era team. They were likable, but flawed. Emrby built an 80′s team in the 90′s. They weren’t athletic enough to defend the wings. They were well balanced and never had a superstar and that’s as far as you can go generally without one. They were competitive, not contenders. We can always look back on that team and wonder if they never made the Harper/Ferry trade what they could have become. That trade at least gives us the ability to wonder. No player on that team made the Hall of Fame and there are valid reasons they didn’t. They are all in the Hall of Very Good.
Fandom isn’t about the destination, it’s about the ride…At least for us.
There’s different ownership and management in Memphis than the last time they blew it up, but it’s possible in the next year or two that they do it again. They are 9-1 over their past 10, but Zbo is probably going to regress in the next two years. He turns 32 in July. I just don’t see them improving from where they are at now and West is filthy competitive. It’s not a stretch that if they regress a little next year they will be the 7th or 8th team in the conference. Franchises like Memphis don’t have the luxury of reloading. They can build a team every five years and then tear it down and start over. You can put off the rebuild for a few years but eventually you need to blow it up. Looking back on the Sarver era Suns they should have traded Nash two years ago and rebuilt. They kept putting it off and are worse off in the long run. Memphis isn’t close to the “which way do we go” zone, but they will be there within three seasons.
I actually think Memphis is are a good blue print for the Cavs to learn from. Memphis blew it multiple times mismanaging their assets trading Love for Mayo, not utilizing Mayo, THABEET, slightly overpaying Randolph and Gay, etc and they were still a competitive team.
What would be the point of trading our draft picks and cap room for a player like Igoudala? Why would we trade all those assets for Dudley and Gortat? This team is being built for championships not to just simply make the playoffs. That’s exactly what those proposals are setting us up for. If we trade those assets for those two players we make the playoffs but we don’t content for a championship.
You guys say that we don’t have time to develop players. But we do. The NBA right now is being dominated by OKC and the Heat. Tristan Thompson isn’t at the level where he will be able to go up against the best PFs in the league at a high intensity throughout a playoff series and same goes for Kyrie and his defense. Our players still need time to develop so mortgaging our future for a few meaningless wins is pointless and counter productive.
OKC didn’t trade their 2009 pick (James Harden) for Correy Maggette, Stephen Jackson, or player like Joe Johnson (all who were top in scoring and playing very well) . They wouldn’t have won the won anything had they done that. Westbrook, Harden, Durant, and Ibaka still had a lot of developing to do. Only after a few years did they develop enough and finally make the playoffs.
Our best bet to win a championship is to position ourselves and time ourselves the best we can. OKC didn’t make the playoffs until Durants 3rd year and lost in the first round, made it to the western conference finals the following year and lost in the NBA finals last year. We have a few years to play with. Chris Grant has bought us time with all our flexibility.
Kevin Love needs a change of scenery. He’s one of the few players for whom I’d be willing to package Tristan. Bring in Love and Lebron will absolutely re-sign here. He would almost have no choice.
Luis – Iguodala has a player option for this season (which he will almost assuredly exercise). Next season he will become an unrestricted free agent. Then I think it would behoove the Cavs to make him an offer. The caveat would be, not to be in desperation mode and overpay him to, for instance, “keep kyrie happy” – but to add him to the core to provide defense on the wings and some explosive fast break opportunities.
Believe me, I saw what overpaying Larry Hughes did to the Cavs flexibility. As with everything – the balance between maintaining future flexibility and timing the ascent is important. On the other hand, it’s worth taking an inventory of what the Cavs and what they could use – and what they could use, is someone like Iguodala.
@Tom
Are you saying they should make Iguodala an offer instead of LeBron, or in addition to? Yes, I’m going under the premise of LeBron opting out.
Is it OK that I mention him by name? You guys were pretty quick to get after Mallory for doing that…lol
@Vesus-
This isn’t video-game NBA. The Cavs couldn’t afford to pay Love, Lebron and Irving. A dose of perspective, please.
Cody,
I want the Cavs to win a championship. I’d prefer they do it without LeBron. I think it is more likely they could get Iguodala in free agency and here’s why. Philly made him a max-player kind of offer and he’s been seen as a disappointment since then. I think teams would be reluctant to offer him a similarly high offer in his next FA cycle, especially since he’s almost 30. I think the Cavs could slightly overpay for him and still nab him for around 10 million a year – and I think he fits a need so well on this team that it would actually be worth it to the Cavs, and maybe not some other interested teams that need more Iso-scoring out of the SF position.
Of course Windhorst said: (paraphrasing) “There’s only one big ticket FA that Cleveland has a chance to nab”, so yeah, if my choice is, press button 1 for LeBron press button 2 for AI2, obviously LeBron is a superior player in every sense. So I would wait to see what plays out before committing serious money. So all this is based on the assumption that Iggy isn’t opting out this season. If he does, then he’s expecting to get more than 15 million a season and in that case – he’s not worth that.
I enjoyed listening to the podcast even though we lost. They shared some really great highlights in the game. The 2nd quarter was awesome. Another bright spot was TT playing hard all the way to the end. I have thought the 2nd unit plays with better chemistry and flow and it has been key to some of the Cavs success. The starters are not there not even halfway! I would like to see Gee improve on his shooting. It seems he only makes the shots from the far left most of the time. I’s love to see a mean streak come out of this virus Zeller is fighting. We could use some NASTY on the court from him. It did suck we lost when we were so close. There just wasn’t a good flow or rhythm going on at all.
Tom, I really don’t like Igoudala just cause he can’t hit 3′s. Plus now we have livingston’s long pesky arms to defend perimeter guys!Love watching that dude play!
If we could package almost any non-Irving assets for Love or especially Marc Gasol I’d be all for it. Dudley or Igoudala? Not so much.
SwIrving – hopefully there’s room for 2 on the I love Livingston boat. I can’t get enough of that guy.
Good point on Iguodala. He’s been poor at 3s this season and particularly bad at corner 3s: 19-82 (yikes).
It would be nice to have someone that can bang that corner 3 consistently.
Tom,
We’ll see how it plays out. I think the Cavs could make the playoffs next season with an upgrade at center and keeping the bench intact for the most part. If they do and keep cap space for LeBron, I think it’s there a good chance he comes back. Of course, that’s mostly a hunch. But I don’t believe Miami will look as attractive after 2013-14. I’ll also go on record as saying that I don’t think Miami will win it all this year. They are peaking too early. Indiana has the tools to beat them. If they can find a way to get the ball to Hibbert on the block consistently (which they coudln’t last playoffs), I think they knock off the Heat.
@grover13 They would simply need to trade for Love and then leave enough salary cap room to sign Lebron. Or even do a sign n trade for Lebron. Hardly impossible.
Cody
Nobody in the east is going to beat the Heat. Bill Simmons also keeps bringing up teams that he thinks will get the job done, but I don’t see any way that happens.
If they lose, it’s going to be in the Finals. But they probably will win that too. They are a great team.
I think Miami wins the title this year if they play OKC. If they play a healthy San Antonio it could create major problems for the Heat. Duncan and Parker would expose their greatest weaknesses. Pop is still the best coach in the league at exposing a weakness in the opponent. Those are the only three teams I can envision making the Finals this year. The Clippers aren’t getting out of the second round. As strange as it sounds they might be too deep for Vinny. He’ll find a way to mess up the playoff rotations. Griffin and Jordan bricking free throws in crunch time and Lamar Overrated and Ryan Hollins as the alternatives. No one else in the East is a legit threat unless they get some help with a Miami injury or a serious meltdown.
Cory – I think SA would have defeated the Heat last year. Miami plays that hyper aggressive defense that overplays everything to force turnovers. I think SA would expose that. If the heat try to defend without the constant swarming double teams, they could be exposed in the post. SA was playing like the best team in the NBA last season and then Serge Ibaka happened. It reminded me of the Cavs playing the Magic in 2009. One team just caught fire at the right time and they were a buzzsaw. If SA is totally healthy and gets to the finals this year I sure as heck know they won’t crap their pants like OKC did last year.
Well, if Miami does win the east, I guess I’ll be eating some crow. But if they don’t, I want some kind of a prize…lol
Considering that OKC destroyed the Spurs after adjusting, I think the same thing would have happened with the Heat. The Heat last year in the Finals were playing at an extremely high level. No one was going to take them down.
It kind of highlights the comparison of what teams are contenders for the title and which playoff squads are competitive. The odds of a team other than Miami, San Antonio or OKC winning the title are slim. Like I’d seriously go with under 5%.
I think the Spurs are the only team that can beat Miami and I felt the same way last year. Not a great matchup for the Heat. That being said, I don’t see the Spurs making it out of the west.