Things are looking up for the ol’ ball club! A three game win streak, the emergence of a bench, Kyrie playing out of his mind…there’s a lot to smile about these days. So Tom, Dani, and I decided to hop on the line.
In today’s podcast we discuss the win streak, Byron Scott’s contribution to the win streak, Speights, Ellington, and what the future holds for this Cavs team.
We can be found on SoundCloud at – https://soundcloud.com/cavstheblog/0021-were-going-streaking
And on iTunes at - https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/cavs-the-podcast/id528149843?mt=2
Wow the Scott hate continues despite winning. I don’t understand it…
Accomplishments:
1. Kyrie is the best young player in the league (the 3rd superstar PG Scott has developed).
2. TT turned into a great rebounder and an efficient offensive force in a year and a half. Who would’ve thought that would happen?
3. Scott has implemented Livingston into the lineup and made use of his skills (someone who the god awful Wizards gave up on)
4. Freaking Luke Walton looks like an NBA player under Scott’s system!
5. Plugged Speights and Ellington into the lineup immediately and is winning games with them
6. There’s been no drama in the locker room despite losing a lot of games
I don’t understand that hate at all. You guys say Scott doesn’t look like he’s actively coaching on the sidelines… who cares? If that’s how he coaches it’s fine… the ship is heading in the right direction. He’s got his own style and it’s worked well enough in the past to go to 2 NBA Finals.
You guys complain that we play a lot of Kyrie iso at the end of game… Duh! that’s because we have Kyrie Irving!!! The dude is a top 5 scorer in the league… No need for him to kick it out to Miles or Walton… Put the ball in Kyrie’s hands and let him go to work!!
What do you guys what him to change? Who would you rather hire to coach? It’s not like Phil Jackson is coming… we should be thrilled to have Scott developing this young team.. Quit the hating
So what’s the general mood now? Positive?
I really think this bench is a difference maker – we have an elite scorer (Kyrie) A consistently pretty good guy (TT) guys who can go off on any given night (Miles, Waiters) plus some decent pieces (Livingston, Zeller, Speights, Ellington, Boobie) – not exactly where to place Gee, but he’s somewhere in there too. Walton is probably the odd man out, but he’ll provide some leadership.
The difference between before and now is that we have two more guys off the bench in Speights and Ellington that have the capacity to score. Suddenly we don’t need our starters to do ALL the work. We’ve been losing by around 10, max, every game, right? Speights + Ellington should easily make up that difference (Versus Kevin Jones + Wlaton + Whatever other junk we threw out there)
Bill –
I’m not sure you can attribute TT/Kyrie to Scott. I’m not sure you CAN’T either, but to say that’s his accomplishment is unfounded.
Dani, Tom and I all pretty much agreed that the real Scott test starts now. With the trade came a bench, and with a bench comes the expectation of winning. If he can pull it off and have us lingering somewhere around that 8th seed (again, as I said in the podcast, not expecting we’ll make it, but we should be MUCH improved) then he’ll get the credit he deserves.
Mallory, you point out the fact that you wish that Grant would’ve gotten us a bench in the offseason by signing some Speights/Elllington-like guys and that perhaps we could’ve made the playoffs. But, you have to keep in mind that we wouldn’t have been able to pick up a future 1st rounder in this trade. Cap space is valueable. Also, our draft pick for this year would’ve been 15-20 instead of lottery… that’s a big difference in the future and I think Grant made the right choice by waiting.
That’s fair, Bill, although no one can say for sure where our pick is going to land. With regards to the pick, it’s not as though Grant knew this trade was going to be available – it’s a good trade, don’t get me wrong, but that pick’s value is still in question to SOME degree, and it’s not like Speights and Ellington are stars themselves. The point is in the grand scheme of how this team is composed I’m not sure that trade is THAT much greater than had we signed guys in the off season. The pick has value, don’t get me wrong, but what it’s worth is very much in question.
Sure, Grant didn’t know this particular trade would happen but he knew that he would put the team in a position to be one of only three teams with cap space, and it was probable that teams would want to get another the cap.
The pick might end up not coming around for several years but you never know. The pick adds flexibility and the potential to add more talent.
Additionally, making a playoff appearance this year takes us from drafting a Noel, Shabazz or McLemore, who will very likely be NBA starters and maybe all stars to guys with much less upside.
I can’t think of a team in the bottom of the league with more potential (except maybe the Lakers haha!). We’ve got a superstar, a promising TT, 2 nice rookies, a bounty of draft picks, a proven coach, and an owner willing to spend. Let’s enjoy the ride and quit doubting every turn
under the cap* not “another the cap”
Donnie, I second your concerns about Luke Walton distributing psychedelic drugs to teammates. Could cause the team to have too much fun and lose focus on basketball
Bill – I actually agree with you about doubting things now. I think you’ll see a stronger team from here on out, largely because less onus will fall on Zeller/Waiters to deliver so much. As long as production doesn’t drop too much from Tristan (it’ll drop somewhat, guys. He’s definitely improved, but teams will start figuring out how to stop that hook sooner or later) we’ll probably see 30-40% Ws from here on out. At least, I hope.
With TT, Scott is possibly doing a great job. I can’t credit him with what Kryie is doing right now though. And who was the first superstar PG he developed??? I hope you don’t mean Kidd.
@ DaveR
He means Chris Paul.
I agree. Don’t count on getting a high pick in the lottery this year. I’d consider this a successful season if the Cavs are the 9th seed in the East, barely missing the playoffs. (Had the trade been made earlier, they probably would’ve made the playoffs, which I think wouldve been a good thing, but I digress). At some point, you jar to start winning games. For development and for the players to keep believing in the system. Notice that Kyrie said “thanks to management” at the Toronto game for that trade. The trade clearly encouraged the players. You can’t play for the lottery every freaking season. Everybody wants to be Oklahoma City, but there’s a thin line between being OKC and being the Sacramenttle SuperKingSonics. If we make a run and don’t get a super high lottery pick because of our young guys, so be it.
As far as Byron Scott is concerned, we are a “chew Em up, spit Em out” city when it comes to coaches, which is unfortunate. Byron Scott actually has an NBA team to work with now. Now you get to see the real coach Scott. We’re already starting to see that. People act as if they didn’t know that it usually ALWAYS takes teams two to three years to start seeing that jump in Scott’s system. It took two years with New Jersey, three years with New Orleans. Any criticism of Scott up to this point means you haven’t been paying attention. Now it appears the Cavs are ready to make the jump. IN THE THIRD YEAR. They william likely miss the playoffs (barring a historic collapse by both Boston and Toronto) because they dug a hole too deep for themselves during the first half of the season, but I don’t think they’re gonna be as far out of it as some seem to think. Next year, they’ll be ready to make the playoffs, which, again, is a good thing. Our young players need a taste of playoff basketball. No team goes from losing 45+ games one year and enters the playoffs as the 4th seed the next. Let the Cavs get in next year as the 8th seed, lose and then the next year go back and have more success. After all, that IS the OKC model right?
have* not jar. Damn iPhone autocorrect. Lol
Cody, he said 3. One being KI and two being CP3. I don’t remember all his stops I guess…who was the other?
[Note: I posted something similar at the end of yesterday's thread but moving it here since that thread is dead]
While I am fired up about Ellington’s play the last 2 games, I am not convinced he will play all that much once Miles comes back. As such, I think maybe we are overestimating his impact here.
Between the 1-3 spots you have 144 minutes per game. You have Kyrie getting 35, Dion getting 30, Gee getting 30, Livingston getting 20, and Miles getting 20. That’s 135 minutes. While I would love to see Gee sent to the bench, I don’t see it happening.
To me, the major upgrade with the bench started about a month back when Livingston replaced Sloan/Pargo, and the 2nd unit all of sudden had two playmakers in Dion and Livingston. That is when the team really started to play better. The latest trade really only has an impact on the depth at the front court.
Hot Sauce – you made one mistake – Livingston has been splitting minutes between the 1/2/3 AND 4. He’s not just playing 1/2/3
I have a feeling we’ll see some small lineups with Ellington too.
As for Livingston – you’re dead right. I’ll admit I loved Livingston way back when (I actually think I was watching that leg game when it happened…yikes!) so my love for him might be irrational, but I really do think he’s got a lot of quality attributes to contribute to this team.
@ DaveR
I see. Well, then yes, he did mean Jason Kidd.
Cody and Dave R, yes- Chris Paul and I think Jason Kidd was a super star under Scott. He wasn’t an elite scorer but he was averaging 10 assists, 7 boards, 2 steals a game. He almost won MVP in 2002 and led his team to 2 Finals. I’m not talking today’s 40 year old Kidd… that dude used to ball
Mallory – That is a good point. If they go with 4 small guys, then maybe Ellington can keep getting minutes. My initial thinking is that the smaller lineups will become less likely now that we have 3 solid bigs. But we’ll see how B Scott plays it. He definitely has more options now.
Note – I meant we’ll see Ellington play the THREE. I forgot to put that in.
But yeah, we’ll see. Lots of options is a good thing – Two months ago our bench was a mess. Not so much anymore.
Until, of course, we start losing again…haha…ha?
I’m with Bill, I was amazed at all the Scott hate. It seemed like a bunch of people who were more concerned about defending their previous positions on Coach Scott and refusing to give the head coach any credit for how the team, or any individual player, performs.
The coach has to be given SOME credit for how the team plays, and how the players perform. And BTW, the call to go for 3 WAS coach Scott’s. Kyrie asked him what he wanted to do in the huddle, and Coach Scott said, “If it was me, I’d go for the win.” So that’s what Kyrie did.
Put aside your own personal biases and give credit where credit is due. Kyrie has 6 30 PT games this year, and three in a row. He had 2 all of last year, I think. Tristan is a double-double machine all of a sudden, and has a decent post game. Livinston, Walton, Speights, and Ellington are all making meaningful contributions. And shifting Dion to the bench raised his level of play as well. The Cavs can finish January at .500 with a win against the Warriors. And all this with Andy out.
Coach Scott and Chris Grant seem to be doing a fine job to me.
Jason – Chris Grant’s job is to acquire players. Byron Scott’s job is not only to develop the players, but to make the team out on the floor more than the sum of their parts.
You certainly have to recognized that Tristan Thompson has made huge strides with Byron Scott as a head coach. Earlier this season I lamented that the team was less than the sum of their parts. That the individual wins were usually because a player caught NBA Jam fire from beyond the arc or something.
These last 3 games have been a revelation. The second unit featuring Luke Walton is actually running an offense and the defensive intensity especially in 4th quarters has been obvious. These are the sorts of things that a head coach gets credit for other than Ws and Ls. how much a coach can squeeze out of the talent he has.
It’s fine to be supportive of Byron Scott or to judge that he is very responsible for the recent improvements. As far as I’m concerned, you can’t on one hand criticize his rotations/gameplan etc when the Cavs lose and not recognize that they have won 3 straight with him in the same suit. At the same time, there is a lot of work to be done. That’s why I said in the podcast that he has the personnel now – he has a bench – he should be able to win ~40% of the time with this talent and youth. In order to do that – the Cavs are going to have to improve in certain areas. Their defensive rotations/intensity have been lacking all season, and their lack of ball movement on offense has led to many difficult shots. If coach Scott can get these guys executing a real gameplan and identity then the wins will fall in place. As far as player development, I’m not sure exactly what Tyler Zeller is ever going to offer an NBA team but Dion Waiters needs to become part of this core. He needs to learn to play well with Kyrie Irving. That is the next step. I’m comfortable giving Scott a long leash. As are the Cavs. If this was OKC he would have been fired earlier this year.
This is what a well coached team does. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201211290MIA.html
We’ve got to figure Boobie could be on his way out for the right price. We then let Ellington take boobs minuets and it’ll help ease our concern of min played. Walton is going to always have a place bc his ability to pass the ball that’s what Scott wants in his second team ball movement/tough D.
Scott actually does his rotations in waves early on the goes with who’s performed well, which makes all the sense in the world to me.
1st QTR at the 5:30 mark Waiters out for Livingston and as of last game TT came out for Speights. KI/Livingston/Gee/Speights/Zeller
2nd QTR started Boobie/Ellington/Livingston/TT/Speights
7:30 mark Waiters/Boobie/Ellington/TT/Zeller
5:30 KI/Boobie/Gee/TT/Zeller Both TT and Waiters were in foul trouble though with 3
Subbed TT for Ellington again tho.
Final stretch of 2:30 in 2nd he goes with KY/Livingston/Gee/Speights/Zeller
3rd leaves starters in till 5:30 and subs out Zeller for Speights
Timeout at 3 min and he subs Waiters for Ellington then at 2:30 foul he brings in Livingston for Gee
finishes QTR with KI/Ellington/Livingston/TT/Speights
Starts 4th Waiters/Ellington/Livingston/TT/Speights
7:30 mark KI/Waiters/Ellington/Speights/Zeller
5 min mark he drops Zeller for Livingston as Tor goes small
2 min mark Tor stays small and we have KI/Waiters/Ellington/Livingston/TT — Finishes game with this lineup.
The name that surprises me the most here is how much Ellington was on the floor. I think you’ll see more of a 15 min split with him and Miles and then who’s hot will stay. I think at times still Waiters will come off the floor at the end of games to learn as well. You’ll notice Boobie didnt contribute much in first half and was left out in 2nd half of this game.
Livingston/Boobie/Miles/Walton/Speights with Ellington then rotating in for the first 3 as well.
Hot Sauce, I think you might be wrong about Ellington. CJ was available and healthy to play in Toronto (he dressed at least), but wound up a DNP-CD. Will be interesting to see how things progress, but I’d be happy seeing Ellington take all of CJ’s minutes. Maybe they can get something for CJ or Boobie at the trade deadline.
@ Tom I think you have Grant’s and Scott’s job description wrong. Grant’s job is to acquire a team capable of winning a championship and competing in multiple years. This team if Grant had wanted could have had enough talent to get the 7 seed easily. If he had bid on Chris Kaman and OJ mayo this could be the 4th or 5th best team in the conference. But Grant decided he didn’t want to do that. He decided that this team needed its young players to get experience and develop for another year, and acquire another top young talent with a lottery pick. Next year I am willing to wager that the cavs are the 5th seed or better. It will be the Bulls and Heat followed by Some mix of Brooklyn, NY, Cleveland and the Pacers at 3-6.
Scott’s job was not to employ this teams talents to maximize their winning potential. His job was to develop his players both physically and mentally. I think that Irving and TT and Varejoa are great examples of what a less than 2 seasons of his coaching can do for a team.
I actually believe that if scott wanted he could still get this team to the 8 spot. We are 6 games back of a staggering Philly team and Boston is on the verge of collapse which is why I believe Sprieghts will be traded shortly
Agree with everything in your post Rodney Mac, except for the last line. No reason to trade Speights. He’s exactly the kind of player they want and need going forward. Would be a Herculean task for Cavs to make 8th seed this year (even with Philly and Boston hardships).
Yes, Rodney is on the right track. Dan Gilbert, Chris Grant and Byron Scott know exactly what they’re doing. They’re tanking. Calling out Scott is either a poor analysis or an over-analysis of our situation. We are on an outstanding path and the winning streak has nothing to do with it.
Just, listen, Mallory’s entire theory of what this team should have done this off-season is wrong. He thinks they should have tried to win, and I’m glad they didn’t. If they start going .500 the rest of the way, it will be the best of both worlds to me. Still in the lottery, but showing real signs of life heading into next season.
As for Speights, if they think some team will give him like 6-7 million a year, then yea, they have to trade him now.
@Rodney Mac – well I suppose you are talking about this year, and not just in general. That’s a fair way to look at it. There is no way around it – the Cavs are timing the heck out of this rebuild. Big props to Dan Gilbert for having the patience to go along with it.
So just in general – seems a lot of people are upset with things ranging from “Byron HATE” to “calling out Byron”. I’m not sure I understand where this is coming from other than some of Dani’s opinions in the podcast – which was basically that he didn’t credit Byron Scott for individual player development. (Can any of you make that argument? Kyrie Irving wouldn’t be Kyrie Irving w/o Byron Scott?)
Byron Scott has been largely absent from critique/analysis on this blog. When the Cavs were blowing 2nd halves left and right I don’t recall any “Byron Scott must go!” posts/comments/podcasts.
I think we all agreed (in the podcast) when I said that Byron has some pieces now and we can see what kind of offensive/defensive identity he can inject into this collection of youth and talent.
I’m just trying to understand the takeaway being that we did a 30 minute podcast hating Byron Scott. I’m pretty sure I said something along the lines of “before you could make the argument that the Cavs offensive woes were personnel related” and Mallory said “Cavs had no bench” and then I said “now he HAS some depth and some pieces to work with – and they’ve won 3 straight”. I’ve never had a strong opinion on Byron Scott one way or the other. Not since the hire. Never loved nor hated the hire – nor the subsequent “coaching” in all it’s forms. I see things I like and things I dislike. Isn’t that the “nuance” and “balance” and “lack of over/underreaction” that a bunch of you guys are dying for from your sports blogs? (Somewhere Colin is weeping tears of joy) I’m glad people are passionate about Byron Scott and I really liked the comment about how Cleveland doesn’t have enough patience for its pro-sports coaches and how that just sets back the organizations. Agreed. Give these guys time to inject their identities.
I’m surprised there isn’t incessant howling about how much Luke Walton was hated on in this blog. I mean the guy was just DESTROYED almost daily on here. I’m pretty sure I was the only one that had a soft spot for a guy that looks like me playing pickup games. (And that was just a bias – he was playing just AWFUL basketball – I should have been piling on too) And now he’s been very effective recently. I’m slightly surprised no one has demanded a huge apology tour from CtB for our real-time Luke Walton analysis that doesn’t fit the “say something positive or don’t say anything at all” demands?
Hopefully Scott catches on that Miles is a 1-2 quarter guy. Ellington could at least fill the remaining minutes.
As for way back on Bill, my point was I think Kidd was already a great player when he got traded. I know he used to ball. It’s a surprise he’s still around and guys that came after him like Iverson have checked out.
I’m with you Tom on Irving and Scott. Coached TT? Sure. Luke’s revival…okay. But I think Kyrie’s taking the shots he takes no matter the coach. I’m sure Scott didn’t tell him to shoot it 4 feet from the 3pt line. It’s also a stretch to say he coached Ellington and Speights in that first game. Use them wisely? Yes. Coach? No.
Yep
Too much Scott hate for my taste. I had to turn it off about 10 minutes in or so.
@Tom P: I thought about demanding a huge apology on Walton, but figured I would just annoy you guys :) I also thought about demanding an apology on Leur – you guys LOVED that dude like 6 months ago and now are ecstatic he has been shipped away, and are even making fun of Memphis bloggers for liking him…. But, again, I don’t want to become a pure troll :) So I keep the mouth shut.
@Evil Genius – Point take on CJ. And I agree – would love to see CJ lose minutes in the short run to learn more about Ellington. But I just don’t think that will happen. CJ, for all his faults, has been a much better NBA player than Ellington over his career and my gut says Scott will let him play.
haha. Well remember, Hot Sauce. We’re all different. Kevin loved Leuer and I tweeted right after the trade that Leuer would probably play really well for Memphis if they actually gave him a chance. Of course I also love the trade since the Cavs weren’t even playing Leuer and Ellington/Speights are young and fill a huge void on the team. Also, 1st round pick? Yes please.
I used to say that there is “something for everyone” (to love) here at CtB with all the different writers. Maybe I should revise that to “something for everyone” (to hate).
Hopefully MIles is a no quarter guy from here on out.
Y’all arguing about whether or not the plan was to tank don’t realize it’s a multi-branching path with tons of either/or decisions that put us where we are now.
Don’t forget they offered more to Batum than Minny.
Maybe that’s why they didn’t buy a bench.
Time for some levity:
A Heat fan passes away during a playoff game and goes to heaven in his Deep Red and Black jersey. He knocks on the old pearly gates and out walks St. Peter.
“Hello sir” says St. Peter, “I’m sorry, no Heat fans in heaven.”
“What?” exclaims the man, astonished.
“You heard me, no Heat fans.”
“But, but, but, I’ve been a good man”, replies the Heat fan.
“Oh really”, says St. Peter. “What have you done, then?”
“Well” said the supporter, “Three weeks before I died, I gave 100 dollars to the starving children in Africa”.
“Oh” says St.Peter. “anything else?”
“Well, 2 weeks before I died I also gave 100 dollars to the homeless.”
“Hmmm. Anything else?”
“Yeah. A week before I died I gave 100 dollars to the local orphans.”
“Okay”, said St. Peter, “You wait here a minute while I have a word with God.” Ten minutes pass before St. Peter returns. He looks the man in the eye and says, “I’ve had a word with God and he agrees with me. Here’s your $300 dollars back, now fuck off”
Good podcast as always… Cracked up about that part about players named Luke ;-)
Ive had a problem with Scott’s extremely predictable offense, but Livingston and Walton are showing what the Princeton looks like when players understand the wrinkles and can make the proper reads quickly. Now I kind of understand the repetition.
IMO, Scott’s real strength is the fact that he demands grit, accountability, and productivity, or else (slit throat gesture), which creates a form of natural selection where the last men standing will all be confident, smart, and mentally tough, no matter how much or how little skill they have. I just hate that he seems to sacrifice any and all other factors at any given moment. Size mismatches, fatigue, skill mesh, the X’s and O’s…Scott goes with “his” player types or guys playing that way, instead of coaching up players that present a matchup problem for the opponent. Scotts bizzare, inconsistent rotations have gottern him fired once his players developed to the point where they could see his lack of adjustments. I’d just prefer a coach who could milk success out of any mental type. Just my .02,
I too loved Leuer too coming into this season. Well, come on! I can’t be right on EVERYTHING! Ha!
Rich -
I don’t really think you can call my theory wrong if you’re okay with this team going .500 for the rest of the season. The two camps are either you want the Cavs to bottom out (again) and draft high or you want them to be as competitive as possible while looking ahead to the future. If we go .500 (or even .400, really) we’ll probably make a slight push for the 8th seed. While we almost definitely will not make the playoffs, it also means it’s unlikely we get the #1, or even a top 5 pick.
I still think Leur will be a very good player some day.