Mooooooo
PHEW! What…a…game! MAN is it good to have Kyrie back!
The Cavs came out FIRING in the first half thanks, in large part, to Kyrie’s 7 assists and a crazy first half from Miles, and lead by 15 going into the 3rd quarter. After only scoring 14 (to LA’s 23) in the third, the Cavs held off the comeback, winning the game 100-94.
The Good:
Kyrie Irving – THANK YOU BASKETBALL GODS, FOR RETURNING KYRIE! Kyrie had a ridiculous night – 28 points (on 11-21 shooting, including 4-6 from downtown), 11 Assists, and 6 rebounds, along with a steal. Not only did he clearly not miss a beat during his four weeks off, he looked invigorated and confident. What’s more, Kyrie’s D was actually passable in this game – he still got beat once in a while, but instead of just watching, tried to catch his loose man. Really, Kyrie was playing with more intensity than I’ve ever seen him on the D end. This was probably his best showing of the season. Man am I glad he’s back!
Andy – With all due respect to Kyrie and his absurd game, it was Andy who played the clutch role in the fourth quarter, snagging a beautiful rebound, hitting a clutch 12 footer and sinking two HUGE free throws. He and Kyrie picked up where they left off on the pick and roll and, after a few lackluster games (for him), Andy finally looked back in his comfort zone on O. As always his D was great, getting into Dwight’s head and disrupting all the action under the rim (even causing a bunch of Dwight turnovers.) Unfortunately, Andy fell short of a double double, partially due to the fact that Howard had 20(!) rebounds. Oh yeah, Andy had a RIDICULOUS dunk on Jordan Hill after faking out Dwight Howard. FUN!
CJ Miles – Despite Kyrie’s return and despite Andy’s phenomenal game, the biggest story of the night is probably the fact that Miles absolutely WENT OFF for 28 points (a team high) on 10-18 shooting (including 5-10 from downtown) and chipped in 5 rebounds to boot. If Miles keeps playing like this, we might have ourselves something, here.
Tyler Zeller’s D – I KNOW Tom noticed but, did anyone else? Zeller was disrupting an inordinate number of Dwight Howard shots. He was physical and fearless in defending someone much bigger and stronger than he. His long twos weren’t falling, but it didn’t matter, Zeller’s impact on D was enough to make him very valuable in this game.
The Bad:
Alonzo Gee – Yeah, he had 17 points (on 6-14 shooting, which isn’t great) and yeah he was playing a Kobe Bryant who was clearly channeling his younger self, but it’s not supposed to look this bad. While Kobe’s shooting was absurd, Gee got beat far too many times, missed some key switches (letting Kyrie pick up Kobe far too much) and bit on pretty much all of Kobe’s fakes. He’s allowed to have off nights, but to the tune of 42 points? When he’s our best defender? C’mon!
Jeremy Pargo – OUCH. Seriously…Ouch. We may have spoken too soon on the Pargo = backup discussion. Keep an eye on this in the future. (Side note: Pargo was the only Cavalier who was – in +/-)
The Cavs Bench in General, Minus Tyler Zeller – I mean…Minus Zeller, they didn’t score a point.
The Rest:
The Lakers Traveling Plans – Apparently extensive. I definitely saw them walk more than a few times (so did the refs). What’s up with that?
Andy’s Rebounding – Obviously Dwight played a huge role in Andy’s ability to rebound, but isn’t it amazing how Kryie’s impact on dictating offense leads to better scoring, which, in turn leads to fewer Andy rebounds? Varejao only had 2 O boards, by far his lowest since we lost Kyrie to injury. Hmmmm….
Note how I didn’t mention Tristan? That’s because he was a complete non-factor, minus some very good rebounding numbers. He looked fine and all, but definitely didn’t wow anyone. And 1 point? Really?
Tomorrow the Cavs face off against the Pacers @ Indianapolis. After tonight, there’s hope again. As always…GO CAVS!
Wes – coming from the guy that wanted Derrick Williams (A DUKE FAN NO LESS!) you are so freaking delusional about Waiters. Kid is going to be a star. He’s “chucking” now because the Cavs start Alonzo Gee and Tristan Thompson, and KI has been hurt half the season. I don’t even need to try to balance out your TT comments – there’s enough people here to do that. What if he becomes as good as Emeka Okafor? You still going to hate on him?
Rondo has a “ship”, buttsauce.
@Nate – if you take away the Gasol fleecing – which directly led to 2 championships, the Lakers FO looks pretty putrid. Of course, you can’t really take that away. I blows my mind the way the organization/fanbase/management/KOBE!!11 constantly put Gasol in a position to fail. They will regret it.
Oh, and let’s not start start going crazy on C.J. Miles. As I’m watching Sportscenter, I’m realizing the defense on him was absolutely abysmal.
@nate – he had an amazing game though. X-factor
Wes, you’re being pretty negative. The cavs beat a kobe 40+ night basically because kyrie took on the challenge. You could use some history lessons about point guards not being on championship teams, but whatevs. Currently, point guards don’t seems to be championship center pieces, but that doesn’t mean we can’t build a team around one. And for the record, Chris Paul is a hall of fame point guard, and he has NEVER and will NEVER score in the same fashion Kyrie does. They are comparable, but not all that similar in the end. And it took a Westbrook to get Durant to the finals. It took Jason Kidd getting the Nets there. It just depends on coaching and front office situations. It can be done.
Hey I hope Waiters proves me wrong. I’ve openly admitted I have unfounded hate for him and I’m not exactly sure why…I just really dislike him. Maybe it was because he was so cocky about being drafted that he didn’t even work out for teams? Maybe it’s because he comes off like an illiterate person during interviews? Maybe it’s because after the Cavs shocked the world (well my world at least) and took a chance by drafting him so high, he repaid them by showing up to camp overweight and out of shape? Maybe it’s because I was a “big” when I played and I absolutely despise inefficient scoring guards who shoot high volumes anyway? Maybe it’s all of the above.
All that being said, I’d much rather have a “chucking” Waiters (especially if he develops into some form of a “star” as you say), as a legit scoring threat with our 2nd unit…..if it means that CJ Miles is going to play like he played tonight next to KI2 with the first unit. Now, is Miles going to average 20+ the rest of the way? No, of course not, but his #s before this year showed he can be a competent scorer at this level.
My point is: a better Miles with the 1st unit + Waiters on 2nd unit > Waiters on 1st unit + CJ Miles from the first 20 games of this season on the 2nd unit. Just something to think about.
If TT “becomes” Emeka Okafor that’s not good enough for a #4 pick on a team so lacking in talent as the Cavs post-LeBron. With a finite amount of high draft pick resources to build the roster, and the amount of talent required to go from Cavs circa 2010 to NBA championship level…..Emeka Okafor is just not good enough.
You’re right Rondo got a championship with Boston in 08. With KG, Pierce and Allen. I don’t think anybody could make the argument that THAT Celtics team was “built around” Rondo. They may be built around him NOW….but then take a gander at how they’re doing in the standings. So my point remains. NBA championship teams just aren’t built around a PG as “the man”. Unless the Cavs magically find the next “stud” to build around in the next draft or two, they are going to be built around KI2 and hoping to buck that trend. I’ll say again “we shall see”.
s87 – I’m comfortable declaring Kyrie a generation prodigy at scoring. He can literally score from any spot on the floor in any situation. That bank shot tonight? Just silly. Step back 3s? Few people can hit that with consistency. Absorbing contact and finishing with either hand? Mid-range? He does everything – and he’s ELITE at everything. His court vision and game management seems so much better than a year ago. He doesn’t even need to be average at defense. He just needs to not be an abomination and he is a perennial all-star. Injuries are the only thing that can derail him. He is another world of talent+skill+creativity.
@Wes – it doesn’t matter if something is “good enough”. TT is the Cavs PF. You don’t have to exceed expectations on every pick. The question is, can you win a championship with TT as your starting PF. If he becomes a defensive juggernaut, then yes, you can. There are some indicators that TT is a defensive force. You might be on to something with starting CJ Miles. Unfortunately that’s going to make it even harder for Casspi to see the light of day.
It’s not like this puzzle is finished and there are two more first rounders (probably top 6) and like 30 million in cap room. You don’t have to hit a home run with every pick and your not. Presti didn’t hit on everyone. Jeff Green isn’t a superstar. Aldrich wasn’t a star. If Thompson develops into Okafor I’d say that’s a double in a pretty weak draft after you already hit a homer with Kyrie. Okafor went second. Most drafts aren’t 2003 where there’s 4 franchise guys.
It seems like Thompson thinks too much when he has the ball. There’s no natural instinct. It doesn’t mean he can’t get it. The light bulb can still come on. In basketball you don’t really get good on offense until you hit a point where you don’t think, you automatically react. It’s not like Kyrie is out there thinking “I’m gonna cross him over, then spin, then…” He just does it. TT isn’t there yet. I could care less if he ever develops a mid range game. We need him to defend the rim, rebound and flush home the bunnies that KI and Waiters deliver to him. That would be good enough for him to be a solid starter.
Looking at the RAPM stat that I refer to now and then; Tristan’s defense is slightly better than his offense is bad. Of 316 players with more than five-hundred on-court possessions, he is the NBA’s 116th best player.
That sounds about right. Really, both sides of the Tristan debate are right-ish. It’s just a matter of perspective. He has been underwhelming for a 4th pick, but he is a useful NBA player.
Can’t we just say the jury is still out on TT and move on? He was neither great nor awful last night, and as long as he’s not shooting too much he’s fine. For now.
Now when he blows a game with 4-13, I’ll be pissed. But for now, whatever – move on. I prefer not to speculate on things like player development simply because I’ll always remain pessimistic until consistently proven otherwise.
I was shocked and amazed by that one defensive possession where on the pick for Kobe behind the arc Zeller switched onto him, hounded him, then switched back to his man as Alzonzo smothered Kobe into an awful fadeaway. Maybe the best play of the game.
s87 – I’m baffled why everyone thinks TT was such a colossal whiff. He’s still very young, but his attitude is great, he works hard, plays good defense, rebounds, etc. The real question is, who would have been better at #4 in 2011? Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, and big V were the alternatives. Assuming we weren’t drafting another point guard, That’s the list (and no we weren’t going to draft Faried at 4). It was a deep draft, but not an especially top heavy one. The value at #4 was really only slightly better than the value in the 20s. Kevin’s right. TT, as ugly as he is to watch on offense, is a useful NBA player who still has an interesting ceiling. Klay Thompson gives up more points than he scores… Valanciunas is even worse when it comes to that. Leonard is just marginal at that. Even Faried lets opposing power forwards post a 20+ PER on average. TT holds them to an average of 12.8. The fact that TT has turned himself into an above average NBA player on the defensive end of the court in just 88 games is actually pretty impressive. One thing I’ve noticed is that TT and Andy play really well together, especially when it comes to rebounding. TT is good at keeping his man off the boards (Dwight Howard being the exception), which helps Andy collect so many rebounds. TT also plays fairly well without the ball, and does enough to keep defenses honest with his moves without it, and opening up to receive the ball. He’s 20 games into his sophomore year and has one training camp under his belt. His problems on offense are workable. In short, he’s not nearly as bad as you say he is, and is on par with the alternatives, so berating Chris Grant isn’t really warranted yet.
Yeah, Dani, Zeller had some decent defensive moments, as did Kyrie. Zeller’s lateral movement and help defense might be his best defensive traits.
Nate -
It’s one of those wait and see situations. I don’t necessarily think he was a colossal whiff, but I definitely don’t think he’s proven to be solid yet. I didn’t see anything that stood out as GREAT D yesterday – certainly nothing blatantly awful, but also nothing that jumped out at me, like Zeller taking on Dwight and shutting him down (I can distinctly remember two great post-D possessions for for Zeller).
The big argument about Tristan is that passable PFs seem to be more copious than SFs (like Klay Thompson and Kawhi Leonard) and true centers (like Valanciunas) – particularly given some serious struggles on offense by Tristan.
That’s really where this begins and ends. The verdict is still very much out on Tristan – I think it’s as fair to say there’s some disappoint as it is to say he’s developed into a good defensive player.
Dani that play, if I’m thinking of the one you are, was absurd. The switch probably gave Kobe a LITTLE space, but not much. That shot was insane.
Nate Zeller definitely has great movement/help D, but he actually looked great one on one with Dwight last night. Granted Howard is a shell of his former self right now, but Zeller played good, physical D with him. Thoughts?
That’s fair, Mallory. I’ve said many times that undersized power forwards are the 3rd round running backs of the NBA draft. One should never take them too early. Scarcity definitely plays a factor.
You guys are still talking about Thompson? He looked fine yesterday. No need to panic on him.
so, that lakers’ pick is lottery protected, right? that is, if they don’t make the playoffs we’re stuck with the heat pick?
@Askel
Yes and yes. The Lakers have been quite bad for a team with that talent. Also, 5 of the next 7 are on the road, with one home game against the Knicks. I could see them losing 5 of those. I wonder if they wouldn’t be better off resting Howard for a week or two when Gasol does come back.
Still, they should make the playoffs. It’s still early in the season and Nash and Gasol should be back in a week or two. If they are below the 8th seed by mid-season, then it’s time to be concerned.
Things I am not worried about
1. Kyrie Irving
2. Dion Waiters
3. Lakers making the playoffs – I think it’s obvious that they will make the playoffs
Just for the group here….I love reading the back & forth on this blog. Agree or disagree, this group provides far more meaningful insight than I could find anywhere in a game summary on ESPN. Great job guys.
grover13
Fear the Sword is a great site for Cavs stuff. Check it out.
Worth noting: Faried’s PER is down from 21.9 to 18.8. Kawhi’s down from 16.7 to 15.0. Klay’s down from 15.0 to 11.9. Out of the four, Tristan might actually be the most improved in year 2, for what it’s worth.
Please note TT’s is down from 13.3 to 11.8.
Oh man – I think we need to go full blown Tristan love fest mode. I can feel it bubbling to the surface. Maybe I post where everyone can add their favorite Tristan stat or moment or youtube clip or nickname.
According to 82games.com ‘simple’ rating, Tristan Thompson is better than DWIGHT HOWARD! GET OFF HIM! http://www.82games.com/1213/ROLRTG8.HTM
Tom
I don’t think you need to GET OFF HIM! but it seems like he does get a ton of criticism even though he’s playing pretty well this year.
The only thing I will add is that the conversation usually is that the Cavs offense functioned perfectly fine withTristan on the court yesterday. The Pistons offense functioned perfectly fine when they had Ben Wallace and were winning an NBA championship. The Bulls offense functioned just fine with Dennis Rodman. It is easier to hide a guy who cant score than it is to hide a guy who can’t defend.
I have already seen 3 stages of Tristan’s defensive development. He started last year flying around getting blocks, not knowing where his man was, not knowing what a rotation was, not knowing how to think on a basketball court. By mid season, he was genuinely trying to play smart and it limited his activity and his reactions got slower. Even with the adjustments that took time, his defense was improving. Now, this year he has immensely improved his pick and roll defense, his man defense (he is much stronger physically than he was last year), and is getting better at positioning himself for defensive rebounds. He isn’t elite yet, and I don’t want to make it sound like he is. But he really is developing, at least on that end. Coach Scott has specifically said they didnt draft him for his offense, they wanted his energy and defense.
Ok, one more thing to note: How old was Ben Wallace til he clicked and was an elite defender? How long did it take Tyson Chandler? It didn’t happen overnight. Tristan is 21. The funniest thing about this is that I never thought I would end up being the guy who defended Tristan. But the Cavs were in a position to be patient with a draft pick, they are giving him solid minutes, and we will see what happens.
http://www.fearthesword.com/2012/5/2/2995348/one-year-down-early-returns-on-the-cavs-selection-of-tristan-thompson
if you want to read like 2000 words I wrote at the end of last year about Tristan
@David – totally agree it’s easier to hide an offensively challenged guy thana defensive sieve.
Ben Wallace would be ideal for TT. Like DPOY type stuff. That would be HUGE going forward. And that stuff doesn’t happen right away. I’m glad that TT’s +/- is so good. That means there might be stuff we don’t really see that are contributing to winning.
I saw Gee bite on one pump fake from Kobe. Thought he did a very good job when he was defending him 1 on 1.
Oh, and both Tristan and Zeller looked good defending Howard. Funny how nobody mentions Tristan’s work on D.
Just to be clear, I’m not admonishing Tristan AT ALL. Merely saying I didn’t see anything impactful from him last night and I think he’s been slow to develop. Again, for the millionth time, that does NOT mean I think he’s doomed.
Does anyone in Cleveland know this? Is this even true? I have not yet seen this explained clearly in any Cleveland media outlet. Sure miss Windhorst… Sounds like we want the Lakers to make the playoffs, but barely?
Chad Ford
(1:09 PM)
Here’s the skinny on that pick the Lakers are supposed to send the Suns from the Steve Nash trade. The Lakers will send the least favorable of their own 1st round pick (top-14 protected), Cleveland’s own 2013 1st round pick, Sacramento’s own 1st round pick (top-13 protected) and Miami’s 2013 1st round pick to Phoenix. If the L.A. Lakers’ 1st round pick is within the top-14 selections, Phoenix will automatically receive the L.A. Lakers’ 1st round pick. In other words, if the Lakers are in the lottery … or even if they WIN the lottery, the Suns are getting the Lakers pick. Makes the Suns’ Nash trade a whole lot more palatable.
Yeah I just read that….confused to. I thought it was lottery protected – not to the Suns…
The Cavs own Miami’s 1st round pick for 2013. They have the right to swap it for the Lakers 1st round pick, if the Lakers make the playoffs. If the Lakers pick closer to the top than Miami’s, the Cavs will make the swap. Otherwise they will keep Miami’s. Since the Lakers pick is lottery protected, the whole deal is off if they miss the playoffs.
@ W C
You are correct. We want the Lakers to get the 8th seed.
@ Tom
The pick is lottery protected from the Cavs, not the Suns.
On that note, we also want the Kings to either make the playoffs, or be at the bottom of the lottery. Not sure if that will happen….
Wow – even better. I predict the Lakers will be a 6 or 7 seed. That’s pretty close to our sweet spot!
Here’s another value-of-TT-is-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder comparison: some have clamored the Cavs would have been better off taking Valenciunas last year, and then Thomas Robinson at PF. Here’s how last year’s NCAA player of the year stacks up with Tristan (both are 21 years old)
TR: 4 pts, 42% FG, 4 reb, sub-10 PER
TT: 9 pts, 45% FG, 8 reb, 12 PER
Not a composite head-to-toe comparison, but just sayin’.
I don’t put any stock into any numbers of any rookie playing with Sacramento. I feel bad for anyone on that team. It’s such a mess.
That is good news! the Lakers aren’t getting their pick no matter what so they have no incentive to pack it up in this crazy year they’ve made for themselves. I doubt Kobe would allow that anyways, but still, good to know they have no incentive to miss the playoffs.
Nate
But you put stock in numbers from a 2nd year player playing for Cleveland?
Cols: Yes. The Cavs seem to value character in the players they draft — much more than Kings. The Cavs also have an infinitely more stable front office and ownership situation.
Hoping to add the Kings pick this year may not be such a good plan. If that happened it would mean the Cavs have to give 2 yr. guaranteed contracts to three players taken from what may well be a substandard draft class. Sometimes I even cringe at the possibilty of them being forced to overpay a probable role player if they get too high of a pick in a bad draft. Grant may have recovered nicely by acquiring Zeller at #17as TT’s value is questionable after having to pick #4 in a bad draft last year. TT is not a bad player but value-wise will he be worth #4 money in the long run?
@Mallory’s recap – I don’t know how you could watch Gee’s performance last night and characterize it as an off night. Dude played excellent defense the entire night. Sure Kobe scored 42, and I will agree he got lazy on some switches, but beyond that there is nothing else bad to say. He was disciplined on the pump fakes and forced Kobe into taking contested, fade away jump shots all night.
Kobe was possessed last night. Nobody else in the NBA could have kept him from scoring 42 last night.
Also, Alonzo Gee was the main reason our awful 3rd quarter wasn’t a complete disaster.
The only other thought I had about this game that is worth mentioning. Its been a while since I’ve seen Dwight play, but Tristan did not look small (smaller sure, but not small) standing next to him, and that surprised me.
Richard – interesting comment about Dwight/TT – Tristan is super broad, so maybe that created the illusion of height?
With regards to Gee, the thing that killed me was FAR too many times did Kyrie end up defending Kobe because of bad switches (which I definitely blame on Gee). That’s completely inexcusable for a vet like Gee – Kyrie, probably our worst perimeter defender, should NEVER be on Kobe. Ever. Kobe will win that matchup every time.
But I might’ve been a little harsh on Gee – he shot around average and did have some big shots.