After a run of exciting, albeit losing efforts; eight games in thirteen days in six cities missing two starters appears to have been the breaking point for our young Cavaliers. Omri Casspi started in Dion Waiters place.
17 points and 18 rebounds...this is what Andy does when he's worn-out.
A seemingly dispiriting evening started early, with Cleveland falling behind four to fourteen, thanks to two of fifteen shooting. Rodney Stuckey blocked a Tyler Zeller dunk…that summarizes the quarter well. Pistons lead 30 to 17, behind 62% from the field.
The second quarter got worse, as Detroit pick-and-rolled, drive-and-dished, and fast-breaked the Cavs into nearly bloody oblivion. During the first eighteen minutes, Detroit missed only twelve shots, of which they rebounded six. Apparently I angered Kyle Singler by insinuating he was merely a role player on a miserable team, as he finished the half with 13 points. Cleveland trailed at the half by a score of 56 to 39, shooting 29%, paced by CJ Miles’ eight points, Andy’s eight rebounds, and five assists from Pargo.
The third quarter started off with more of the same, until at 66 – 47, Varejao poked Kyle Singler in the eye. In an obviously related sequence, Tyler Zeller canned a few jumpers, Donald Sloan scored seven unanswered, and suddenly, the Pistons lead dropped to ten. Cleveland entered the fourth within shouting distance.
Nothing ever really materialized though; with three minutes left, Boobie missed a wide-open shot that would have narrowed the deficit to four, then the Pistons waltzed to a 89 to 79 victory.
The first half was really bad; Detroit got everything they wanted on offense, Cleveland generated nothing at their end. The second half featured the type of basketball that results in a 73 combined points. Anyways, Cleveland shot 34% for the game and 15% from deep; it is hard to win that way. Hopefully Dion is back on Wednesday and Kyrie a couple of weeks after that, and the offense looks a little more dynamic.
A few bullets:
- I still think Cleveland can be decent-ish this year; i.e win 2 of every 5 games when healthy. With Kyrie around, the starting five played very effectively. At that time, the bench was an albatross. Recently though, the back-ups have stepped-up. Not ‘this guy should be starting somewhere’ stepped-up, but ‘I think the team can avoid 32 to 6 runs’ stepped-up. in his last ten games, Casspi averages 7.4 points on 62% true shooting, with only 0.7 turnovers. In the last 5 games he appeared in, CJ Miles logged 39 points on 55% true shooting, with only 4 turnovers in 76 minutes. Since Friday, Zeller averaged 10 & 6, and finally showed his acclaimed jump-shooting ability. Pargo represented himself very well in the quest for a back-up PG. Add in Daniel Gibson, and this bench can be as adequate as hoped for.
- Speaking of a bench that could be as adequate as hoped for; where is Jon Leuer? It’s approaching a month since he got non-garbage run. Don’t get me wrong; I have enjoyed all 1600 career minutes of Samardo Samuels and his 11 PER, but I hope Leuer gets more of a chance than 3 games.
- Andre Drummond is an offensive rebounding machine. He’s pretty tall and athletic, with long arms. A skilled scorer he is not, but he’s young.
- This will sound odd, because he finished with 17 points, 18 rebounds, and 3 steals, but occassionally I thought Andy looked a step slow tonight. Did he need to play 39 minutes, when the team trailed by twenty in the third, two nights after playing 47 minutes in the second game of a back-to-back? Perhaps I am just overly intrigued by the Spurs and the career-management feat they are pulling off with Tim Duncan (a 28 PER and he’ll be 37 by the playoffs!), but the Cavs play two more 4 games in 5 day stretches this month. The last game of both is a roadie. I say sit Andy for both. Two games rested now, could mean something when Cleveland is ready to contend again.
- Tristan Thompson had a double-double. It took thirteen shots, but I would be remiss not to mention it.
Just to be clear, Tristan had a truly terrible night. Don’t let the stat line mislead you.
Kevin I thought the same thing about Andy. He was sluggish. I noticed on a number of occasions after Pargo got torched Andy was slow to help. There were even a bunch of loose balls that he sort of threw his arms up at but to no avail. he looked gassed and I agree with you. It makes no sense to grind him into oblivion when the Cavs have little chance of making the playoffs – especially in the cases you mentioned. I’m tired of injuries.
Yeah where IS Jon Leuer??
Also, Thompson needs to ninja kick the next guy that blocks one of his dunks. It’s got to be a real commitment from the defender. I just can’t take all the wide open dunks getting sent back. Something’s gotta change.
Seriously, Pop and his genius aside, let’s not get into the whole ‘sit for two games for rest’ thing. These are professional basketball players. What pop has is a unique situation in that his best players are old, his team is contending, and the core of that team has been playing together for a long, long time, and needs little if any time to jell.
What the Cavs have is none of those things. Andy is still far from being old, even in sports terms, the team is not a playoff contender unless things change way beyond what I’m watching, and they definitely need as much time playing together as possible.
What I would advocate for all NBA coaches is much better minute management. Say, play Andy Varejao 20 minutes for those two games, and not 40. But don’t get all excited and carried away just because something came up big in the news, or else your new extreme is as absurd as the old one of ‘players should play to the absolute limit just because they can.’
Andy’s worst game by far.
Just missing loose balls and bounds, throwing bad passes.
He may have the beginnings of flu.
He still played better than anyone else.
Casspi does a lot of good things, boxing out, moving WO ball, passing, team def., and getting to hoop.
Some days they fall; others they don’t, but he deserves good time in the rotation.
Miles made some fine shots today then took another shot every time he got the ball.
He’s not adjusting to the team as well as hoped.
Gibson, Sloan, Pargo & Gee went 10-37 out of the backcourt, today.
That’s why we lost.
Thanks for the short yet succint recap Kevin. Guess it goes to show you don’t have to write a thesis to describe what goes on in a 48 minute basketball game.
Btw, a rhetorical question since I didn’t get to watch this game but how many would the Cavs lost by if Dion and his 4-15 played tonight….whew, I guess they lucked out only losing by 10.
Isaac,
THe Spurs have been doing the “limit their stars minutes / occassionally bench their stars” thing for years. It is in the news now, because of Stern, but it’s not a new idea.
Over the first 54 nights of the season, the Cavs play 29 games, with 17 on the road. There are three, four-games-in-five-night stretches. For the remainder of season, there are 53 games in 116 days, with 24 on the road, with only one 4 in 5.
The starting portion of Cleveland’s schedule is grueling. After December 22nd, their wouldn’t be much reason for random rest, but right now the Spurs idea fits pretty well with Cleveland’s schedule. I’ll keep bringing it up; I like the idea.
This was a night where Andy should have played 15 minutes. Rest that fragile (it’s Italian) guy….Waiters would have made it a more entertaining game to watch.
Yes, Andy looked very tired, but… with the major scorers out, he has to be more aggressive with the ball, and Scott needs to tell the guards to be more aggressive in getting him the ball. This means re-posts. This means not passing the ball immediately back out if the look isn’t golden. A lot of the Cavs problems tonight were because Andy is the best player on the floor for them and he needs to play like it, which means not deferring to the guards all the time, and going into the post and trying to score.
As for resting him, I completely agree. @Isaac: have you ever played basketball on a regular basis? It is much easier to play one game for 40 minutes than two games for 20. The playing isn’t just about being in the game. It’s the warmups, the cooldown, etc. The whole experience is what puts stress on the body. There’s a lot more to it than just the 20 minutes in the game. It isn’t the first game that wrecks you, it’s the swelling, the stiffening, the loosening and then not healing enough before the next time you go out and do it again. Especially with the older guys, it is smart not to play them as much in compressed schedules, especially when back-to-backs are involved. I’ll tell you I can barely walk after playing ball two days in a row.
As for whole “these are professional athletes” argument, I doubt there are many that are more professional than Varejao, but the human body has it’s limits. Additionally, forces are magnified in basketball because the players’ bodies are so big, and it is about as high impact a sport as there is on the back, hips, knees, and ankles. If the science says that injury risks can be reduced and players’ careers can be prolonged by sitting them strategically, then “professional” or not, it is in the best interests of the player and the team to sit that player on occasion.
I’m not meaning to be condescending, and I appreciate the sentiment, but tough guy foothabll coaches used to have practices where they’d deny their players water in order to “toughen them up.” Well, that turned out to be pretty stupid, in retrospect, as lack of hydration is a huge factor in a ton of injuries and can even kill you. Being “tough” isn’t always the best strategy. It’s often counterproductive, especially in the long term.
Thanks Nate. Good response to some pointless tough guy rhetoric. Its not like Verajoa is whining he has to play all these games, its that playing all these games for a bunch of minutes is increasing the likelyhood he misses extended time down the stretch and/or develops some chronic knee/back/ankle problems. The fact that he’s being paid a lot only further proves we should be smart with how we use him to maximize his value. I don’t think playing him 40 minutes in the 4th game in 5 nights also in a game we were never really in is “Maximizing” his value.
As for how we would have looked with Dion, I think he would helped us. He puts up as good of numbers as the 10-37 Gibson, Pargo, Sloan, and Gee had, plus he draws attention away from them and sets up the offense so that they probably would have shot at least a little better. Not to mention he’s a bit better on D than Pargo and probably Gibson of late.
This Spurs rested their players love is a bit over the top. Yes they have on occasion rested some of their stars who are actually old.
Andy is not actually old yet.
And of course Tristan Thompson having a double double doesn’t count at all according to Mallory. Can’t ever say anything good about him.
SwIving –
The thing about this game was that Gee/Pargo/Sloan/Gibson (ESPECIALLY Gibson) had open looks. I counted AT LEAST 4 WIDE open threes he missed. I he went 1-6 from downtown. The problem wasn’t that the guys didn’t have space to make shots, it was that the shots just weren’t falling.
Based purely on Dion’s raw stats for the year (36% shooting) he might have helped a bit, but would he have changed the court of this game? I dunno.
On Tristan’s troubles around the rim….people seem generally not worried, because apparently they’ve got big Z as his personal shooting coach. Folks, that’s a recipe for disaster.
I’ve always liked Zydrunas Ilgaskus, but he is what he is- a prototypical European. A skilled shooter and ball handler for someone his size, but not very strong or athletic. The majority of his inside buckets were via putback tips (due to his height and touch), or jump hooks.
Here’s the flipside….Big Z was ATROCIOUS when someone beefier bodied him up. When faced with an agressive defensive player, all he would do is pump fake and pivot himself into oblivion, in hopes of getting the defender to leave his feet. If the defender held he ground, he was effectively neutralized. He avoided contact at all costs. Never in his career was he an “attack the basket” type of player.
This is the type of player TT needs to be, given his size and athleticism. Needs to learn how to quickly gather himself, put his shoulder into people and power his way to the basket. He gets blocked all the time because he’s not using his body to initiate contact and create separation. He’s not going to learn that from Big Z….if he never played that way in his life, how can he be expected to teach it?
I’m happy the Cavs are throwing Big Z a bone, giving him a chance to continue to earn a paycheck after his many years of dedication to the franchise….but this is not the gig for him. The sooner the Cavs realize this, the better.
Mallory
Of course Waiters would’ve helpted. Not having your best shooting guard available is definitely a detriment to the team.
Cols, I’m pretty sure Grover13 made some pretty good arguements. If Z wants to teach Zeller, great. But him and Thompson look nothing alike as players, and I’m sure thompson would benefit more by learning from someone who actually knows and successfully went through the nuances of what he should be trying to do, than learning from Z, who could only teach as much as he has learned from other people telling him, as he has no game experience actually successfully practicing what he should be preaching.
@Kevin, @NateSmith,
What is it about the comment section that leads to such misunderstandings? Kevin – that was exactly my point, Pop has been doing this for ever: just because it’s suddenly in the news in a big way, lets not get carried away and start advocating giving our best player two consecutive games off.
Nate – yes, I’m fortunate enough to be in College, and have a lot of free time. I probably play pickup for 4 hours a day, 5 days a week, of which probably 2.5 are playing and 1.5 hours are sitting by the court waiting to play, or doing weights in the weight room. I’ll never have this much time to play ball again, so I know how lucky I am, and take full advantage. It’s also a great community by the pickup courts. I know the aches and pains that come with playing a lot, but I find that the further into the semester I get, the better conditioned I am, my stretching is helping my flexibility, and so long as I do a sensible warm down I’m good to go the next day. And I don’t have ice baths and personal trainers and a serious off season routine and all the other things that “professional” (if you insist on using quotation marks) athletes do.
I’m fully aware of the theory behind it, and like I said, I’m all for managing minutes, and strategic resting down the stretch towards a playoff run. However Andy is 30. He doesn’t have any serious or chronic injuries at the moment as far as I know, and the Cavs players have no reason to be extra rested at the end of the season, because the end of their season is not playoffs, its the offseason. Duncan is 36, Ginobli is 35 and a walking injury – Pop doing what he does makes total sense. For Byron Scott to start giving players the whole game off would just be downright weird, it’s not needed.
That being said, I’m still a TT fan. Kid is still very young, and has a great work ethic. There’s no reason why he can’t have a Varejao-type career arc. But he’ll only learn bad habits from Z that do not suit his skillset. He needs a summer or two at the Pete Newell big man camp, to learn how to use his body. The work on the jumper can come later.
Isaac,
The miscommunicating is like sending emails at work; at some point you’re just better off calling.
Regarding sitting players during compressed schedules, maybe the Spurs are on the cutting edge of something; and it may have little to do with age, or contending status. The study in the Abbott article discusses the increased rate of injury for soccer players that play more frequently (six times more injuries for twice the frequency of games).
If the Cavs play 29 games in 53 days, what if the five starters sat two games each, with Andy sitting three? Over time, can those 11 games of ‘optional rest’ result in 15 games of less injury? I don’t know, but at some point, why argue with medical research? Someone has to be the first to do something new and ‘weird’.
Kevin, absolutely, and I’m sure we’d find ourselves largely in agreement if we spoke. I personally wish the NBA would go to a much shorter season – Shane Battier had some great ideas a while back, and Bill Simmons (of all people) piqued my interest with his plan for a mini tournament for the 8th seed, but that’s a different topic. Anyway, you may well be right – I’m always for decision makers actually using scientific theory in practice.
Isaac, Nice rebuttal to my parochial retort. I’m seriously jealous of your youth and the amount of time you get to play. Some day you’ll have to tell me how the run is where you’re at.
About the rest thing. Its not just about longevity in the long-term. And its not just about being old. See Danny Green. Notice that the cavs 2 top minute getters beside andy are already hurt. i put that on the schedule and on Scott for not doing the Pop and resting guys even if they don’t want it or think they need it. Anyone playing more than 30 minutes a game should never play 4 in 5 and I would definitely rest my top 3 for one of those games. Its about preventing a sprain or tear which become way more likely when the ligament was sore and tired before exercising.
As for the random cheap shot at Dion’s 4-15′s. This game proved why we need Dion hoisting bad shots. Because those are the best shots we get sometimes and it forces the D to center on him. Without it we get last Night
Evidently Mallory didn’t read my post yesterday where I mentioned the stat that the Cavs score over 15 points per 100 possessions with Dion on the floor vs. without him. So, Mallory, think that might have made a difference last night? Ya think? Or still “don’t know?”
Wow…
TT played well last night. Pure effort. Which is a skill. Considering Drummond was just as bad as TT at scoring last and just as good at offensive rebounding, I’d call it a wash. But, man, Drummond is impressive. His passing was better than I thought, too.
And Kevn, you HAVE to start mentioning the calls or lack thereof, when doing a game recap. It is being mentioned and shown CLEARLY on the TV broadcasts and to not mention it at all seems willfully ignorant. I really like and appreciate your recaps too.
KJ, I didn’t see that post – so I apologize for not mentioning something I had no knowledge of. My point was, based on his RAW shooting %, he was right around what they shot last night.
In order for the Cavs to win this game with Dion, his defense has to be at least 5 possessions above his replacement (would it have been? I don’t think anyone knows the answer) and he would’ve had to have a better than average shooting game for himself.
I don’t know why you take what I say so offensively. The entire team played pretty poorly last night (even Andy, in all his amazingness, had an off night) – no one has any idea if Dion would’ve saved this game.
Also, as an added point, the problem wasn’t lack of open shots – the shots were there – they just weren’t falling.
Instead of “Saint Weirdo,” can we call Waiters “Caramello?” At the % he’s shooting, he’s sort of like a fat Carmelo.
Nahmean?
No one has any idea if one the Cavs best players would’ve made a difference?
That’s just nuts.
Kj,
I try to stray from talking about the officiating, because I’m biased. I agree the Cavs don’t get a lot of calls.
Why have the readers of this blog rebelled against its writers? If you don’t like the content, the opinions or the tone, find a different blog to read.
@Cols No one every really knows what’s going to happen. That’s why we watch sports. Who would’ve predicted that Jeremy Pargo was going to win us a game after Kyrie went down? Maybe Dion would’ve had an awful game. Good players do have bad games sometimes.
@Kevin There are a lot of complaints in the comments section, but I imagine that also means there is a lot of interest. I don’t know what kind of hits the blog is getting now, but it seems to be getting a lot more comments than the last couple of post-LeBron years.
Jon
No kidding. But saying that having Waiters play wouldn’t have helped is crazy.
Jon,
Obviously, I’m not the Kevin you’re talking to, but November was the Blog’s highest volume month of the last year. Ten thousand more page views than any other month.
@JON. This is by far the most negative and aggressive the blog has been probably since its conception. Thats because for the first time since the Larry Hughes signing (pre-blog to my knowledge) the future of the cavs is beginning to be molded. Its the first year we have been able to really debate anything. During LBJ it was always can they find the last piece or fire Mike Brown. After LBJ there was room for debate on Dwill or Irving or TT or Big V but nothing decisive. Last year after Andy got hurt it was clear we needed to lose. Sure the Barnes Beal debates were good but this year is different. Based on how this next 16 14 months go we could become the Kings or Spurs. Do we lose lose or go for the 8 seed? Do we sell Andy for the right price? Whats the right price? Did Grant blow it by not signing a better roster this summer or is it perfect having tons of cap space for this summer and the next 2 trade deadlines? We have 2 1st in each of the next 3 drafts (depending on the Kings) how many do we use? How many do we trade? Who fits around KI and DW? Is TT a bust?
In my opinion in the rebuilding process this is crunch time. Thats why the intensity is picking up. If the writers can’t handle it get of the BLOG.
Rodney Mac, about your first comment about injury: “its not just about being old. See Danny Green. Notice that the cavs 2 top minute getters beside andy are already hurt. i put that on the schedule and on Scott for not doing the Pop and resting guys even if they don’t want it or think they need it.”
I don’t disagree, much. I would note, though, that Danny Green went 0 for 7 the game after his rest, and was pulled after 20 minutes. Sometimes young players need more time, not less. On our own injuries, as I understand it neither of them were due to too much playing time, but rather a broken finger and an ankle sprain that happened when Andy V fell on Dion. You could rest a player all you like and have him break a finger in his first game back, so I wouldn’t read too much into those two.
@ Isaac. I hear you on Kyrie. A broken finger is probably just a broken finger. But I do think that a full strength ankle has a better chance at withstanding that trauma then a ankle that has gone through the cavs schedule. Not only the amount of games but the road too. We all know its much harder to heal when you have to travel immediately after. I played college ball and games after road games were miserable. I get that they fly first class and not on a cramped bus but still. Your muscles stay sore longer. Your joints especially leg and ankle don’t recover right. Sure it could have happened even on a fully rested ankle but maybe not
Rodney Mac – fantastic comment. Really, that sort of sums up everything. We’re at such a pivotal point in this iteration of the Cavs that, unlike the past few years, there are actual serious topics to debate with tons of different answers.
I, for one, think that’s exciting. Nerve wrecking, but exciting.
When I watched this game I didn’t even realize that Andy was 17 and 18 or w/e. This surprised me because I thought our guards did a terrible job of getting him the ball. There was a particularly bad stretch in the third quarter, and I could see his frustration building, partly from his some no calls. On a side note, he seems to be whining to the refs a lot more than I remember.
Anyways, the point I wanted to make was while Kyrie and Dion are out, Pargo and Varejao’s minutes should be separated as much as possible and Andy should be the only person to initiate offense when our shittier guards are on the floor. He throws some nasty passes, and I love how mobile he is with the ball in the high post. Incredibly entertaining player to watch. Nobody in the NBA has a game like he does (Marc Gasol without the hustle is probably closest.)
On Tristan, I agree with Mallory that this was a pretty terrible game for him. I thought Drummond (ldefinitely raw) was a complete mismatch and pretty much had his way with tristan. Having said that, Tristan tries harder than anyone on the floor. And you have to appreciate his team defense. He’s definitely an asset to have for those two reasons, I just wish he’d learn to finish or pass it out. The amount he’s been getting blocked has to be historically bad.