Cavs: The Podcast 0017 – A Dark (Not-So-Stormy) Night
2012-11-26
Tonight we lost to Memphis in the waning minutes. Tom, Colin, and I all were a little ticked off, so we jumped on a podcast and recorded our thoughts. Basically…We discussed Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, the Cavs’ D, and the value of Anderson Varejao. Among a bunch of other things.
SoundCloud: http://soundcloud.com/cavstheblog/0017-a-dark-not-so-stormy
iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/cavs-the-podcast/id528149843?mt=2
Enjoy!
I think I have realistic expectations for the Cavs this year. Still, it’s a bit deflating when they continually lose close games in which they were leading, you know, because I like them and I want them to win. If I didn’t have any emotional reaction to the games, I wouldn’t bother watching. That doesn’t mean I think it’s the end of the world though.
I haven’t listened to the podcast, so I won’t comment on whether or not it’s pessimistic. But I don’t begrudge the writers of this blog being disappointed with losses.
Peter – well said, thanks. I’m looking forward to more Cavs bball. There is a lot to be excited about and the tough losses are going to turn into exciting wins soon.
Cols – I’m going to blame you for everything until you answer the question “in what way does Tyler Zeller LOOK SOLID” where Tyler Zeller = The basketball player on the Cavaliers, “looks” = what we’ve seen on the court as it relates to basketball value, and “solid” means = positive value. Once you can convince anyone with an IQ higher than Zeller’s FT% how you came to that conclusion other than just not watching him and assuming he’ll be good because he runs the floor and could shoot in college then I will stop thinking you are being the… Read more »
Tom,
Haha I think you misunderstood me. Overall I think the podcast was balanced on both ends and that you guys all made good points. I wasn’t trying to shit on Mallory or anything, you could just tell he was totally bummed by the loss and it carried over, but I mean hell a 9 pt 4th quarter will do that to a guy. I was merely saying that after a game like that you need a couple beers to find the silver linings.
Cols – yeah I did. It was right after the 3rd straight 4th quarter blown lead. I didn’t notice any of the Cavs players, of media personnel rejoicing in the loss. If you simply want us all to say “who cares that we didn’t win, we were competitive” then I’m sorry we didn’t say that? (not really) All of us understand the schedule has been tough and the team is young. None of had crazy expectations for the season. It’s just NICE TO WIN. When you lose in semi heartbreaking fashion – sometimes you try to explain it. The podcast… Read more »
I definitely enjoy this Cavaliers blog more than any other for two reasons: 1) The collection knowledge about the Cavs (and basketball in general) is better than anywhere else I’ve seen. 2) The posters are passionate about the Cavs. As far as the current status of the Cavs, I feel positive. Don’t get me wrong, losing stinks. I would have loved to seen the Cavs pull these games out. However, before the start of each game, did anyone think these would be close contests, especially with Kyrie out? If the Cavs can make these close games now, what will it… Read more »
Peter – thanks? Mallory is the reason the podcasts exist. He’s the reason we do them, he’s the guy that puts in the hours to mix them, he’s the guy that keeps them focused and somewhat succinct, he’s the guy that schedules them, he’s the guy that comes up with the questions, he’s the guy that gets nationally renown writers to show up and give us an hour of his thoughts. If he wants me to buy him some beer, I most certainly will – we all owe him as much. It’s discouraging to see a total lack of constructive… Read more »
Tom
One more thing, maybe instead of blaming your readers and commenters, you should give the podcast another listen and realize that the reason people think it’s overtly negative, is because it is.
Tom
Have you listened to the podcast? It’s pretty negative. Especially with Mallory squealing about powerful and bouncy.
Tom
I don’t think so, you guys are really negative during the podcast. It’s pretty ridiculous. Especially with Mallory squealing about powerful and bouncy.
It’s not just the perception you know.
And yes, Mallory I know the podcasts are free and therefore beyond criticism.
Cols – it’s a unexpectedly positive development. No one thought Pargo would be so productive. He essentially was the difference maker in our lone recent win. He looks competant and suddenly, a huge void looks like for the time being it might be filled. All 3 of us were in total agreement with that on the podcast. You’d look less like a troll if you’d acknowledge that much of what we said was actually VERY positive last night instead of trying to unite our own readers against us. You’re better than that. (right?)
Yes, there is absolutely no Derrick Williams vs Tristan Thompson discussion. The only reason those names intersected in the podcast is the question was more of less “is there anyone you would have RATHER had out of that draft class than Kyrie and TT”. The answer from Colin was sort of “it’s a moot point because while I’d rather have Kawaii Leonard, no one was going to pick him that early and he might not be the player he is if not for SA.” Mallory answered it more from the perspective of “yes, there are guys that right now I… Read more »
Tom,
I think you guys have done a pretty solid job on the podcasts, maybe one of you could get Mallory drunk on Samuel Smith’s Chocolate Stout to cheer him up a bit before you guys record. That’s all we’re asking.
Why shouldn’t you be raving about Pargo?
Anyone want to follow up on us raving about Pargo? Or does that not fit the narrative a few of you have established…
Peter
Well said. I guess most of the commenters here are pretty happy with the team so far this year. It’s time for the writers to get on board.
Can’t we all just get along? With a legitimate bench this team would be above .500 right now, the team wasn’t put together to be in that position. We are looking to compete next season for a playoff seed. This was the plan. I know it hurts to accept this but its the truth. Say we competed this year and nabbed a 7 or 8 seed, do you really think we’d be able to make the jump the next season to a top contender? So TT is not Dennis Rodman (fun fact- he was 6-7 and didn’t start 40+ games… Read more »
Rich I’m sure you loved Kroliks tweet the other night about TT vs Jonas then. If you listened to the podcast – which most of you didn’t – we were positive about positive developments and pretty forgiving about everything else. I concluded by saying we are all looking at different things in this transition year. I’m looking mostly at player development not wins.
Kj he plays center this year because the Cavs don’t have one. Get a grip. He was the backup “big” during the LeBron years and it was common knowledge that he didn’t have the girth to play against true centers as much as harass stretch 4s. He can play C and the more time he gets the more effective he is. I’d argue Varejao has always had tools that I’ve yet to see from TT. And he’s a lot bigger – longer. Let’s put it his way. The minute TT does ONE THING in an actual NBA game that makes… Read more »
KJ is right. There is a reason I’ve frequented this blog less and less since Krolik stopped running the show. The pessimism has been far to much and expectations far to high. As has been asked, you guys at CTB expected what exactly? If this is in fact to be like the OKC model, do you not realize OKC was absolutely horrible in this same year (2009) of their rebuild. Started the season like 3-29. So, again, what exactly were the writers of this blog expecting, and why did they expect that? Moreover, as opposed to being disappointed with the… Read more »
Mallory, I posted what Lloyd, who is a Cavs beat writer, said about this team. I’ve posted what Amico, a Cavs beat writer said about this team. Cols posted that Hollinger ranks the Cavs 8th and yet you presume to act that the onus is on Cols to prove the Cavs aren’t horrible. Again, perfectly sums up this blog lately…
Btw, anyone trying to rip Dion, who has UNEQUIVOCALLY exceeded expectations (so far, to be sure), is either a fool or a troll. Or both.
How can I argue with someone who thinks Andy plays power forward when he plays center? You willfully ignore and purposefully misunderstand my points. I even threw you a bone that I basically agree with you about Zeller. Ok, I get it. Moving on…
Once again to sum it all up KJ, me and most of the commenters are saying that we think the Cavs are going in the right direction. That Irving, Waiters, Andy, and to a lesser extent Thompson all seem like they are pretty good with Irving and Andy looking fantastic. CTB, thinks that Chris Grant screwed the pooch by drafting Thompson and that he put together the worst bench of all time (he might just have done this) and therefore the Cavs are not going to get better and we are screwed because of it and maybe a Cleveland team… Read more »
And yes, I know that Waiters and Irving suck on defense. They are young, they will get better. They don’t suck on defense because they are slow or unathletic. They suck because they don’t care much and have only been in the league a short time. It will improve.
Mallory What did you expect from the team this year? I expected a competitive team that would be in almost every game. That’s exactly what we have. A good young basketball team. It’s a good progressions. Worst team in the league to getting Kyrie, to getting Waiters and being pretty decent when the starters are playing, to hopefully competing for the playoffs next year. Do you even watch the games? I ask this seriously because it seems to me that you turn on sportscenter and see they lost and then go into depression because Chris Grant has not yet turned… Read more »
Cols, define “pretty well” because a 3-10 record coupled with disappointing PERs doesn’t exactly scream optimism. Sure, we;ve seen signs of decent play from Waiters, Zeller, and TT, but we’ve also seen Waiters jack up shots, lapse on D, etc. What, from that, suggests we’re surely going to be a better team next season? I’m not asking this because I necessarily think we’re going to be bad next year, i’m asking because your eternal optimism doesn’t seem based in anything. The one decent win we have came on a day when Waiters shot out of this world – given enough… Read more »
Andy is not undersized to play PF. He has a 7 foot wingspan. He could always finish even early in his career. He has added somewgat of a mid range game which nobody would have guessed. Its true some players develop skills later. For big menits usually defense and rrebounding not touch, ft shooting and a mid range game. How about this. If TT can develop a mid range game I would have to drastically reevaluate his “ceiling”. Likewise if Andre Drummond starts shooting 4 3s a game at 48% I think he could be a hall of famer. If… Read more »
I don’t understand the Williams vs Thompson debate. Wasn’t Williams drafted before Thompson?
No one is ignoring bad signals. What people have seen is that the Cavs team, especially the starters, has played pretty well this season. Waiters, Irving, and Andy have been pretty great while Thompson hasn’t been awesome he’s been OK for young big man with only 1 year of college and 1 year of NBA.
KJ – would you prefer I wait until TT is 30 to guess what he’s going to look like at 25? For the love of God
I’ve recalibratedbmy expectations for TT. There is nothing to make me believe he will ever be competent offensively. I hope I’m wrong. I’ve used Ben Wallace and now Okafor as best case scenarios. The first would be good the second a bit of a disappointment. There is no way questioning DW vs TT is insane at this point as you advocate so strongly. Zeller won’t continue to shoot 40% from the FT line but he hasn’t done anything that we should be excited or optimistic based on what he’s actually done. If this blog seems to pessimistic its because you… Read more »
Btw, Andy is under-sized and offensively challenged too and yet is now an all-star level player. That’s why I object so strenuously to you passing judgement on TT and making claims on his ceiling. We’ve seen with our own damn eyes that a big guy takes lots of time to improve and can improve MASSIVELY over the course of a career. Furthermore, TT does share Andy’s effort and motor, to a decent degree. It is not insane to think TT could elevate his game to Andy-like status by his late 20’s. Also, how much older was Okafor than TT when… Read more »
I have no problem at all with Zeller. He was a mid first round pick. If those guys contribute, and Zeller looks like he is going to, then that’s great.
Btw, you’re basically right about Zeller and if you (care to) remember i was one of the few during the draft and after preaching caution about people getting too high on Zeller. HOWEVER, your failure to mention his injury and how he was playing prior to it is disingenuous.
You do realize with each successive post you’ve agreed with me more and moved the goalposts from your original comments on the podcast, yeah? Ok, cool…
KJ – so wait, you counter my “your argument sucks” with a “no, YOUR argument sucks”. For the record, I wouldn’t draft TT or Derrick Williams 4th if I had to do it over. If I had the choice between the two, I probably would draft TT. And it’s not based in any way on actual production – I think TT COULD become a great defensive player. I don’t know TT’s ceiling, but right now, Okafor seems OPTIMISTIC based on TT’s early returns. Nice try throwing the +/- back in my face. I IGNORED the +/- when I made my… Read more »
I think that personal attacks are very unnecessary. Ad Hominem is and always has been the least effective form of argument. As for the blog’s negativity, I haven’t really seen it like everyone else apparently has. In general, the mood is joyous when we win, and less so when we lose. Seems fair to me.
Cols – you are funny. If Hollinger’s ratings had the Cavs 28th you’d find a way to dismiss them as being based on too small of a sample size. I’m glad that YOU have established that John Hollinger’s analysis is worthy analysis. Maybe you can use Hollinger’s words or metrics to back up your “Tyler Zeller looks solid” claim. Let’s see if I can help. Here’s what he said about Zeller pre-draft: “The Rater is a particularly harsh judge at the center position, where it frowns on the prospects of four centers with first-round aspirations — Tyler Zeller, Meyers Leonard,… Read more »
Tom, not one single GM would take Williams over TT. That is beyond ludicrous. Williams has no position. Period. And as even Hollinger admits, PER is not the end-all of stats. You conveniently ignore Williams beyond awful shooting and meh rebounding. Seriously, who would take Williams over TT? I mean, I can’t believe someone who watches basketball would make such a statement. If you think I was incredulous before, holy moley! Haha! It is also hilarious how you claim plus/minus is “noisy” THEN turn around and use last night’s game’s plus/minus to try and prove something! Priceless! INDVIDUAL GAMES PLUS/MINUS… Read more »
W C
So Hollinger’s analysis backs up the comments here that have said this Cavs team is doing OK and CTB was going overboard on the negativity?
Funny.
Hollinger’s rankings are up – which are based on margin of victory and strength of schedule. As soom commentors have suggested, this team is better than the record inidicates. If the steady defensive improvement is real, then I think the team will end up as many predicted – just inside the lottery, just outside of the playoffs, especially once Kyrie returns. These rankings have a pretty good track record or predicting a team’s actual ability. Wins and Losses can be somewhat arbitrary, but margin correlates fairly well to future success. In a way, the ideal scenario is to see these… Read more »
I wish a guy on the Cavs looked like a muppet. Chris Carter has a muppet face. It’s the eye brows. Perhaps Harangody…
It’s all about the demeanor, really.
We can argue all day over Big Bird vs TT. But one thing is CERTAIN – Oscar is a FAR better defender than Kyrie.
Well that’s not exactly fair, Big Bird’s jump hook is killer
There’s some great positive energy on PBSkids.com, check it out. Boundless enthusiasm, and to be honest, I think big bird is more effective around the hoop than Tristan.
I’m sorry, I tried to make it clear I was not speaking in regards to the podcast, but what was being said in written form (especially the comments section.) I don’t think I’m slinging mud, I’m just expressing a concern. I didn’t think we’d make the playoffs this year. I thought we’d be a below average team, and that’s about what we will be over the course of an 82 game season. Go through and look at yours and Mallory’s comments in the past two posts especially. I think you’re coming from the right place, I think you’re just being… Read more »
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the internet! I will say that people need to adjust their expectations and enjoy watching a team be built from scratch (which Chris Grant has done a nice job of doing it the right way, and quicker than a lot of teams). We’ve added four guys in the last two years that we expect to be a solid part of our core. If one or two of them are having an off night, the other two usually have performances to get excited about. Some nights all cylinders will be firing and it’s really really exciting.… Read more »
Carter – give it a listen. I don’t in any way think CtB is being overly pessimistic. Nate VIDEO DOCUMENTED Kyrie Irving’s defensive struggles. In the accompanying podcast, we all paid lip service to it and I said that it looks like an effort thing and it will get better. Then I compared him to Rondo and Rose who didn’t play any defense their first 2 years. Is that overly depressing? To point something out and then all agree it will get better? (with zero evidence it IS getting better?) John Hollinger called KI the worst defensive player in the… Read more »
Why does everyone want to put an “e” in Cory? The world doesn’t ned unecesary leters. It’s a huge waste of ink and eventualy we’l run out. My own dilema. I dig what you’re saying Cols. A lot of people took Tony Grossi that way when he was covering the Browns for the Plain Dealer. That he was too much of a pessimist. It’s a grind following a losing team, let alone devoting a lot of your time writing about one. Some people are bottle of Fernet half-full people and see things in a positive light and others are bottle… Read more »
Fun stuff there, guys. I was amazed at TT’s numbers. Two things i think are happening: 1, Tristan Thompson has developed into a decent individual defender. The numbers back that up. 2, he’s still learning to play with the extra weight. I think he needs to lose 5 pounds and get a little bounce back. 3, Tyler Zeller has not been nearly as good as he looks. He doesn’t defend very well yet, and it’s hard to win games with him getting extended minutes. Also, his shooting needs to get better. He’s only shooting 41%, (36% in the last 5… Read more »
I was speaking to the general tone of the blog as of late, Tom. Sorry, should have made that clear. I’m working, and thus can’t listen to the podcast.
Mallory
Don’t whine that the podcasts are free. Take the criticism and do something good with it. We all appreciate CTB or we wouldn’t be here.
Carter
You got it exactly.
Carter – did you listen to the podcast? We said that the offense got stagnant late because of Kyrie Irving missing, and we mentioned how great Tony Allen was on defense. I’m pretty sure I concluded by saying this loss didn’t bother me too much. We spent half the podcast raving about how awesome anderson varejao is and mentioned how Casspi and Cj Miles were coming around. Colin also spent some time praising Jeremy Pargo – and we all agreed. Seriously, what are people listening to? It’s disappointing when you want your team to win and they blow 3 games… Read more »
I just don’t know exactly what you writers want from this current Cavs squad. I sort of expected them to be pretty decent – The bench was worse than expected, but the starter’s 5-man units have been pretty solid (with everybody healthy.) They’re not good right now, but this blog is sort of running around with their hair on fire right now, isn’t it? 13 games does not a good sample size make. I understand there’s not much to talk about other than the fact that we’re not winning right now, and that, yeah, you’ll need to talk about that.… Read more »
KJ – I love how you are incredulous with our tone, and then your coup de grace is to point out that Tristan Thompson is averaging ONE more point than Derrick Williams. Which is, of course, meaningless since TT is averaging more minutes per game. DW has improved his PER from year 1, and is more productive offensively. TT “seems” more productive defensively, but again, this is based on the noisy +/- type stuff that someone needs to investigate further. I would gather many NBA GMs if they had to do it over again would take DW over TT (not… Read more »
Corey
You are right, however Fear the Sword and other Cavs blogs have all been a lot more positive than this one which is really getting hard to read and listen to. The team is playing pretty good basketball, yet losing. The smart patient fan looks at this and sees progress, especially with the starters and especially with such a young team.
Cavs The Blog looks at this at whines like crazy. Still on my reading list though.
Mallory, the main issue that I have with the TT bashing is that, like Tom was slowly coming around to, maybe TT wasn’t meant to be that completely dominant player we wanted. He’s already showed that he could possibly become an elite defender at that position, and that has a lot of value. I agree that because of his offensive limitations and complete lack of improvement on that end there is a level of disappointment. However, if TT can become a dominant defender at the 4 then I think that we can go home happy. Especially if he continues to… Read more »
KJ the Derreck Williams thing was (mostly) facetious. He’s still a high ceiling guy with a game that would compliment our team nicely. But, like you said, he’s not exactly a star. I think we gave TT credit for what he did tonight, but the guy did get blocked on a key shot down the stretch. In addition, we’ve now seen this Cavs team totally collapse in the last 5 minutes of three straight games. If you don’t think that’s a fact worth questioning than I’m not sure what you’d have us talk about. And it’s not as though the… Read more »
I agree w/brandon…Mallory sounds like a Valley Girl at a slumber party…. that and the fact that he cuts people off mid sentence only to stutter for 4 seconds, before saying something meaningless…. Makes it hard to keep listening…. Nice work the rest of you!
These guys are doing a podcast about a 3-11 team. If I threw knives at my bum ass roommate from across the room I’d hit him at a better percentage than a .214. The blog is light years better than what the Plain Dealer has to offer. I actually had to type in “cleveland.com/cavs” today on my phone because its been so long since I’ve gone to the site for Cavs info. The podcast is fine. The bench is designed to cost them games. Period. That’s the plan. Stay on the bus or get off at the next stop. It’s… Read more »
Dudes, this podcast could be great with a different host. Mallory, no offense, tone it down and let Tom, Colin and Kevin deal. These are the only guys anybody wants to hear.
Never trade Andy!
The losers mentality doesn’t matter when you have high character guys. Durant and OKC were terrrrrible for years and now where are they at?
Agree with KJ regarding the Derrick Williams comparison… But it seems our best player may actually be AV at this point. He’s averaging 14 PTS and 14 RBS a game.
In regards to Tristan, great article posted on Fear the Sword the other day about how he might be better than he looks:
http://www.fearthesword.com/2012/11/21/3676280/surprise-of-the-cavaliers-young-season-tristan-thompson-alonzo-gee
Oh and it ain’t just me. Here’s Jason Lloyd a bit ago on Twitter: “Watching this team compete vs Heat and Grizz last 2 games w/out Irving is fairly remarkable. #Cavs closer to relevance than record indicates”
Literally had to stop listening halfway through. Mallory, I disagree with nearly everything you said and I think you we’re wrong about at least 60% of the subjects you addressed. Everyone basically agreed with each other and there was no real insight given. To be brutally honest, it sounded a like a fan bitchfest. I’m sure I’ll get roasted for this comment but I just had to say it. I mean, Mallory, you literally asked why we couldn’t beat the top two teams in the league on the road!!! Do you understand how competely crazy that sounds? We’re the youngest… Read more »
In regards to any potential Andy V trade listen to these Grateful Dead lyrics:
Wait until that deal come round, don’t you let that deal go down,
Wait until that deal come round, don’t you let that deal go down,
Don’t you let that deal go down, don’t you let that deal go down.
Love the discussion. I would of loved to see Grant pick Kenneth Faried with the 2011 #4 pick but he wasn’t the only team that passed. He was picked 22 overall. Hopefully Andy can teach TT a few things before he’s gone.