Windhorst has the report, initially from the Washington Post. Apparently it’s a three-team deal. The Cavs are getting Jamison, the Wizards get Z’s expiring contract and a first-rounder from the Cavs. The Clippers are the third team involved, and will be sending Sebastian Telfair over to the Cavs as a part of the deal.
Much more analysis on this deal is coming. Obviously, Jamison is somewhat of a consolation prize compared to Stoudemire in the eyes of some. Steve Kerr and Danny Ferry are close. I assume that if Ferry gave up, the Suns had made it fairly clear that they weren’t going to deal. Waiting on some information regarding that, however. The Cavs didn’t give up Hickson, and if they do get Z back they gave up almost nothing of significant value. In both front-office and basketball terms, this was a lower-risk move for the Cavs, albeit one with a lower ceiling.
This move puts a ton of additional pressure on this postseason. The Cavs got the upgrade they were looking for without touching any of their major assets. Now all they have to do is win.
I like the trade, especially because we don’t give up Hickson so we aren’t forced to mortgage the future for the present.
Ric Bucher is reporting he thinks the Cavs wanted Jamison all along. If that’s the case then Danny Ferry has to get big ups for building the Amare hype with his buddy Steve Kerr. Prior to all the Amare hype the Wiz were asking for J.J. Hickson. Once the Wiz were afraid they would get stuck with Jamison’s contract they were willing to unload him for Z, and Ferry was able to sweeten the deal by getting the Clips to throw in Thornton.
If we get Big Z back in 30 days this trade is a huge win for us. The only risk is if somehow we don’t get Big Z back. I know we now have a glut at the 4/5 even without Z (with Powe coming back and the addition of Jamison), but Z still brings an element to our team that is needed against the Lakers. Our twin 7 footers look real good against the Lakers twin 7 footers, and if we don’t have Z against the Lake show I worry about what happens if Shaq gets in foul trouble.
All in all though the risk of not getting Z back would have been there in the Amare trade as well and at least now we don’t have to give up Hickson. Also, Amare is injury prone and young and wants a max deal. Jamison is at the point in his career where he will be willing to play a role and win a chip. Once we get Z back we are going to be a matchup nightmare, we will be able to run any kind of team we want out onto the floor and we will be able to matchup with anyone. Big, small, whatever.
I like the trade, and Ferry should get executive of the year. You have to give him credit for doing everthing he can to put a winner together around LeBron. Ever since the midseason trade two years ago Ferry has put together a hell of a team.
In conclusion, the matchup possibilities are endless. And less chance for any individual player to get injured (as well as plenty of people to cover minutes).
Also, I agree with Mat. Way better to have too much than too little. Obviously four power forwards are too much, but until we get Z back I see a lot of Varajo rotating in at the 5 with Shaq, and Hickson and Jamison rotating in at the 4. Powe will get in where he gets in and depending on matchups and who we play he will get more minutes. He’ll kind of be in the same situation Jamario is in. Some nights he wont’s play. Some nights he might get twenty mintues. Also, The Cavs will definitely be giving Jamison and Shaq limited minutes until the playoffs. Both are old and need to be fresh for the postseason. I say let Jamison get comfy with the team and then start cutting back on his minutes as we approach playoffs. Jamison will not be averaging 20 points for the Cavs but anywhere from 13 to 15 would be a great number.
Hey guys, I’m sorry not liking the deal. I never liked the deal for Jamison, except a couple of months ago when I mistaking thought he was 31 and had a shorter contract. I never wanted him in the first place. I think he’s a slight upgrade this year, but that it doesn’t hand us the title. And I think he’s a big risk in coming seasons. You can point to guys who have aged well like Nash but I can also point to KG, Ray Allen and Rasheed who have aged poorly. And Sheed and Ray haven’t even had any big injuries. Age is a risk; Jamison may not age at all or he could breakdown. I’m speculating using numbers and you guys are speculating using other things, but it’s all speculation. I’m not ‘whining’ as much as I am speculating, just with a different expectation than you guys.
Can Telfair be moved tommorow or not? I dunno all of the trade rules.
BradleyH says:
February 17, 2010 at 6:37 pm
Hey guys, I’m sorry not liking the deal. I never liked the deal for Jamison, except a couple of months ago when I mistaking thought he was 31 and had a shorter contract. I never wanted him in the first place. I think he’s a slight upgrade this year, but that it doesn’t hand us the title. And I think he’s a big risk in coming seasons. You can point to guys who have aged well like Nash but I can also point to KG, Ray Allen and Rasheed who have aged poorly. And Sheed and Ray haven’t even had any big injuries. Age is a risk; Jamison may not age at all or he could breakdown. I’m speculating using numbers and you guys are speculating using other things, but it’s all speculation. I’m not ‘whining’ as much as I am speculating, just with a different expectation than you guys.
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But there is an imporant difference….minutes. Sheed and KG both have had deep deep playoff runs (sheed more than KG) and that = more minutes and more games. It’s like Kobe starting to break down. Kobe, at this point in his career, has now played more minutes than Charles Barkley because of all the extra minutes due to deep playoff runs. Jamison hasn’t had any significant playoff runs of any kind to add wear and tear on him.
Rich: Jamison hasn’t had any significant playoff runs of any kind to add wear and tear on him.
I’ve said my piece. I’m getting killed for it. I’m through with commenting. I hope the Jamison deal proves me wrong. I’ll either be back to say I told you so or to beg everybody for forgiveness.
Jamison is definitely old. And two years from now when he is in the third year of his contract he definitely will not be the player he is today. That’s not speculation, that’s a fact. But the beauty of this deal is that we kept Hickson. Two years from now Hickson will hopefully be a much better player and he will be getting more minutes. Jamison will have an expiring deal in 2012 that we can again deal at the deadline.
I think this deal carried less risk than the Amare deal, and definitely makes us a better team. Maybe there isn’t as high a ceiling as the Amare deal but we didn’t sell away our future so we don’t have to worry about the floor falling out from underneath us.
Best case scenario. We win a title this year and next year with Shaq and Jamison. After this offseason we sign Shaq to a two year deal. Then in February of 2012, we will be two time defending champs with two nice expring deals to work with at the deadline when the wheels start to fall off of Jamison and Shaq. And we won’t have a reluctance to move them. Unlike KG or Ray Allen, these guys won’t be the big three, they will be Bron’s sidekicks and sidekicks are always expendable.
Worst Case Scenario, Jamison thuds and We still have Hickson to take those minutes and continue to grow.
Amare was a smoke screen, Jamison is the guy Ferry wanted all along and we got to keep Hickson. It’s a no lose situation.
D-Block, say hello to the D league for us.
anyone else feel bad about trading big Z?? i hope karma doesnt bite us in the ass….. hopefully we get him back in 30.
I feel bad. I hope he’s not mad. and does this mean they stop playing the LeBron Big Z puppet hand shake commercial. I love that commercial. We definitely have to get him back in 30 or I sour on the trade.
who wants to buy some DVDs??????
Wow, so now we are worried about Z coming back? This has been the plan all year. Trade Zs expiring deal. You guys knew this from the start. I mean even if he didn’t come back the team is still better today than it was yesterday.
Wow, apparently Rich is a robot who has no heart and enjoys seeing guys who have poured blood sweat and tears into our franchise get stabbed in the back and traded away to one of the franchises we hate the most.
Rich has a point, although if Z didn’t find his way back it would be the worst thing to happen to a loyal athlete as any in the NBA.
Look, I don’t think we stabbed Z in the back. Z knew this was coming all along. We all did. We had to move Z to make the team better. I do think the team is better with Jamison and No Z than with Z and no Jamison.
That said there are two big reasons I want Z back:
The first being it just doesn’t feel right to not have Z on the Cavs and as the Cavs all time leading scorer and an all around good guy I want him to be there when we win the chip.
Also, we need him. We match up well against the Eastern Conference without Z but if we play the Lakers in the finals we need him. The Lakers have two 7 footers and we need two 7 footers to match up. Shaq can handle Bynum and Varajao can D up Gasol for the most part, but Gasol would abuse Hickson and Jamiso in the low post. Gasol is just too crafty and too tall. At least with Z we can throw hight at Gasol with Z or throw some physicality at him with Varajao. With Z we can mix up our defense against Gasol and hopefully not let him get too comfortable. Also Z and Shaq rotating at Center has been working very well. They both have very different games and it is hard for teams to adjust to their contrasting styles in the middle of the game.
So we are better with Jamison and no Z. But we would be even better with both of them.
Thus I’m keeping my fingers crossed we get Z back… plus I just love that commercial.
Stabbed Z in the back? You know, if paying someone 100 million dollars to play a childrens game is stabbing them in the back, then I want to be stabbed in the back. He has played hard, and he’s been paid for it too. It isn’t like he’s been doing all of this for nothing folks.
For some reason, my comments weren’t posting for a while. The CBA specifies that Telfair can only be traded on his own to another team, and cannot be packaged with other players, for two months (or essentially until season’s end).
This is a better trade than Amare for a few reasons: Antawn’s not a head case, Antawn will bust his butt in the playoffs, he can shoot 3s, we didn’t have to give up Hickson, and he can play the three. As for the difference in true shooting percentages that Krolic referred to, I think that most of that comes from being the primary offensive weapon on an offense that isn’t as prolific as the suns. Imagine this defensive lineup though: Shaq, Andy, Antawn, Moon, and LeBron. No one under 6’7…
if amar’e was a smokescreen, wow danny ferry wow. Way to tug at my heartstrings, you had me on Pins and needles. Best smokescreen of all time. Now turn around and trade Jamison + Wally + Danny Green + JJ for Amare and Jason Richardson. Get Z back and it will be Daniel Plainview instead of danny ferry. I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE. I DRINK IT UP.
good trade 4 u but remember the road to the finals goes through THE MAGIC KINGDOM!!!!!!
@ Trey and Kevin- Except Amar’e has only stated he wants to be on a contender, not sign a max contract. If he signs for 13 mil a year, they could still sign Wade and LeBron to max contracts. Wouldn’t you take a huge pay cut to be part of a team with two of the best players ever? That would most certainly be a team that wins the championship nearly every year for the next decade.
I’d respond to everyone else, but there’s way too much kool-aid drinking going on here.
Yeah, we’re worried about the 1 year wonder down in Magic land./sarcasm. You gave up your biggest advantage over us when you let Hedo walk, and you don’t have anything on us now. Good luck keeping the corpse of Vince Carter alive in the playoffs, maybe Dwight will just start taking over games in crunch time! Ha!
As for a real issue, I like this trade only because it has minimum impact on our team. This is of course assuming Z comes back in 30 days. If he doesn’t, I’ll be very upset. I’m a huge fan of loyalty, and nobody deserves it more than big Z.
And now I’m seeing that the Mavs have their eye on Z. I hope you’re happy Cleveland, we sold our souls. We’ll lose the championship, and now we’ll lose both Z and LeBron. Sigh. I really hate being a Cleveland fan sometimes.
I can’t see not liking this trade. I could see not liking it vs. geting Ama’re, but the risk of waiting on A’mare was that you’d get nobody. Nobody’s TS% is like 4. I could also see the LeBron/Amare’ dynasty fantasies, but I think we needed to deal in the here-and-now and for this team, right now, Jamison is the better choice because I think he fits better short-term (or is at least less of a question mark). As to a year or two down the road, that’s for Danny to worry about.
Z needs to come back obviously. Don’t be mad Z. Sokolowski’s on me! (That’s crazy; you’re paying, but I’ll hang.)
I just saw the footage of Jamison leaving the Verizon center. He didn’t even happy dance. Pro!
All that said, I’m glad we got Jamison because I can never remember where ‘Amare’s apostrophe (non-possessive) goes.
Z won’t go to Dallas. The Mavs got Haywood and Z would get limited minutes on a team that has less a chance at a title than the Cavs. If Z gets the buyout he definitely comes back as we give him hte best shot at a title in a town he has lived in for over a decade.
Also, not enough people are talking about the fact that we kept Hickson in this deal. Hickson has looked good for the past month and he absolutely beasted the Magic before the all-star break.
When judging this trade we shouldn’t just compare Jamison vs. Amare.
It’s Jamison + Hickson vs, Amare.
I like Jamison + Hickson. More long term insurance. less immediate risk of fitting in and figuring things out. and two is better than one in this case because Amare has a history of injuries. look, I would have loved to have Amare, but I think this is a ver solid move for the team with less risk and a similarly high ceiling when considering Hickson’s future.
So, we gave up nothing and got a 20 and 9 guy, and we think that this is a bad deal? Are the people of Cleveland really this stupid? This organization has been OVERLY loyal to Z. Any other team would have given up on him with the foot problems he had. What did we do? We signed him to a deal and kept him here. That easily could have blown up in our faces. Now, we get a serious upgrade at the 4 and we probably get Z back in 30 days and people still aren’t happy? I don’t even know what to say. . . .
As a longtime Cleveland sports fan and Cavs fan, I’m disappointed about the Z trade. Glad to have Jamison as I would hate to enter a long playoff run with a rookie (basically) starting at PF in JJ. And yes, Z has been paid well for his efforts, but we don’t love or hate teams or players based on their salaries, do we? We all take for granted that these guys make more per game than most of us do in a year (or two). So let’s leave the money out of it. Z has been THE consistent figure on this team since way back in the hard years post Price and Dougherty and pre LBJ. If he doesn’t get to return in 30 days and make the run with this team, will it be like the Curse of Colavito? Will the Cavs be doomed to lose like the Tribe? Just a thought…
I would also submit that the Cavs are a better team with Z and no Jamison than the other way around. Z may be slow afoot these days, but we need him in matchups against the elite tall squads (LA, Orlando, etc.) when Shaq is in foul trouble.
Just a thought. Cavs/Wizards becomes a Real Thing if Z doesn’t come back. The players will be Up In Arms for years about his Wrongful Imprisonment.
Okay, enough with frivolous caps and back to happy thoughts.
I could see Ferry flipping a couple other players still (and really at this point, I think it might help). What do you guys think?
Woah, everyone needs to chill out on Z for a minute. Seriously, relax. The guy is coming back. All the team did was trade his salary. There really is no need to worry at all. He will be back with the team in a month, fresh and ready to go for the playoffs.
Now, onto BradleyH…. all of you need to cut him some slack. He has some points that can’t be overlooked. Players can age overnight. Last year, Ray Allen was dropping 50 on the Bulls in the playoffs. This year, they are trying to move him because he just doesn’t have it anymore. There is no guarantee Jamison keeps up this level of play two years from now, let alone next year.
I have no problem with this trade if the Amare thing wasn’t real. But there were reports that the Cavs backed out of the Amare sweepstakes because they decided they weren’t going to part with JJ. I really hope that’s not true, because it is just ridiculous. I love JJ, but he is not, and never will be, Amare. He’s got athleticism, sure, but the kid doesn’t have the basketball skills Amare has. I’m still extremely uncomfortable with him as the PF of the future.
Another thing… since when has Jamison EVER been a good defender? John posted the stats, and the stats say his defense wasn’t very good. Why are we making assumptions that he can effectively guard Rashard, KG, or Josh Smith? Honestly, I think Amare has gotten a bad rap on defense. He is capable of being a good defender, and he has shown the ability to defend. I have no doubt he would have been a solid defender in Mike Brown’s scheme. I think Jamison will be ok as well, but still…. its Amare freakin Stoudemire.
And don’t talk to me about chemistry. That means nothing. The team with the most talent wins. LA last year. Boston the year before. The reason Orlando got out of the East last year is because they had more talent. That’s the bottomline.
Orlando got out of the East based on a hot streak. They shot almost 45% as a team from beyond the arc in that series, and I’d like to see them try to do it again this year.
Some related questions, though:
When had Mo been a good defender before coming to Cleveland?
When had Wally been a good defender before coming to Cleveland? (And he was aging the same way Jamison was.)
Jamison will at least try. He may fail miserably. I’m fully prepared for this, though. As long as Z does return, we will still be AT WORST the same team we were 24 hours ago.
JJ will be a better player to have than Antawn in a few years. But now? I don’t think that even in the worst-case scenario (Jamison’s minutes so bad that he’s reduced to a Starbury-Celtics-type role) we get much worse, since those minutes ARE coming from Hickson. I don’t think anybody is arguing that Hickson RIGHT NOW is significantly better than Jamison on a string of off nights.
Mat, you think Ferry might trade some more? And that as you say, “it might help at this point?” You’ve got to be joking, right. We already had the best record in the league and we got an all star caliber player for basically nothing and you think we still need to make some more moves. As for these people talking about trading Hickson, Jamison, Green, and whoever for Stoudemire= give me a break. The cavs were better off with this trade. Stoudemire doesn’t play d, can’t shoot, and his stats are inflated from playing in a run and gun offense with Steve Nash. Averaging 20 pts a game in Phoenix is like averaging 14 a game on teams who actually play defense. I even saw one guy above who posted that the Cavs are stronger with Z than with Jamison. What planet do you people live on? I don’t know why I ever read these message boards. It just pisses me off and makes me think all my fellow Clevelanders are imbeciles. I’m glad Ferry is pulling the strings and not anyone on this message board.
My concern at this point is simply dilution. 14 good players < 7 great players.
I don't want Amare, certainly now that we have Jamison. Considering the options that were out there, I wouldn't be surprised to see another trade go down.
We certainly don't -need- it, and I was of the opinion that we didn't need Jamison either to have a great shot at the title this year.
Mat has a great point. All Danny Ferry has done is surround LeBron with decent to very good players. Trading for Amar’e would have brought in a great. But no, we had to trade Z for an aging Washington guy with horrible defensive skills and who only shines on offense because he’s been on bad teams. LeBron is going to see right through this crap.
As much as many fans (and I’m one of the worst) over value our Cavs guys, there’s been quite the over valuing of Amare here. I don’t care that it’s AMARE FREAKING STOUDEMIRE. He’s not that great. Sure, he’s good and talented. He’s also injury-prone, a head case, and not worth even close to a max deal.
George says:
February 18, 2010 at 5:16 am
Mat has a great point. All Danny Ferry has done is surround LeBron with decent to very good players. Trading for Amar’e would have brought in a great. But no, we had to trade Z for an aging Washington guy with horrible defensive skills and who only shines on offense because he’s been on bad teams. LeBron is going to see right through this crap.
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Ok, since you seem to be so sure, let me throw it at from this angle. Amare only shines because he plays in a scheme that is dominated by offense and has Steve Nash giving him the ball. Put him in a half-court system and he wouldn’t work (see what I did there? I have no clue if that is true, just like you don’t know if Jamison only looks good because he is on a bad team). Horrible defensive skills? He isn’t great…but it’s better than Amare’s defensive lapses. LeBron wanted the trade. What are you going to say when Z comes back? Is this still a bad trade then? Do we somehow win the title w/o Jamison by hanging onto Z?
The guy above has it right. Cavs fans over-value their own players. They also over-value other players they covet…including Amare Stoudemire. Again, if the guy was so dominant, so great, so amazing, so athletic, so effecient, they should be winning 60 games this year. They have Steve Nash. Steve Nash + one of the best big men i nthe game should = a much better team than the one we see. It’s because Amare isn’t dominant. He doesn’t demand double teams. He doesn’t pass well. He doesn’t defend well. He is a black hole on offense. He does want a max deal (dunno where you’re getting this he just wants a contender thing. It’s a conensus that he has asked for 3 years at 60 million from the Suns and has stated his want to play for Miami multiple times). LeBron definately leaves if we give away Hickson, don’t win a title, and Amare bolts. I’m so tired of hearing fans act like getting Amare somehow guarantees LeBron staying. The only thing it guarantees is giving away a young talent in Hickson for a guy who has had multiple surgies, isn’t dominant, and could very easily walk after only playing a couple of months.
BTW, everyone here is over-valuing Z. Because a guy has played for the team for a long time, we refuse to see that the guy we just traded is flat out better. Do you want to win? Or do you want to keep a guy just because you like him? Do you want LeBron to stay…or do you want Ferry to make the same mistake he made last year by not moving Wally and yet again lose in the playoffs, forcing LeBron to question the front office he plays for. Which is it? I personally want to win, and at the end of the day I want LeBron to stay. However, if neither happens, this deal at least gives up some hope for the future. Amare? Well, lets say the Cavs lose in the playoffs and LeBron walks. Well, now Amare walks too. And we gave away Hickson so there isn’t that. Shaq is moving on because the team isn’t going to win a title now and who knows what else. At least this way, if the bad things happen we have a guy who can atleast play decently for next year, and young piece in Hickson who is developing. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Mat says:
February 18, 2010 at 1:42 am
My concern at this point is simply dilution. 14 good players < 7 great players.
I don't want Amare, certainly now that we have Jamison. Considering the options that were out there, I wouldn't be surprised to see another trade go down.
We certainly don't -need- it, and I was of the opinion that we didn't need Jamison either to have a great shot at the title this year.
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People need to realize Ferry HAD to make this deal. If he sits on another expiring deal that has a guy who isn't contributing much (no folks, Z is not contributing much…deal with it) then he would be all but done after this year. Self-preservation.
Z cant guard his shadow no less Dwight Howard and our OTHER 7 footer Marcin Gortat when they play together the paint is SHUT DOWN just ask the CELTICS thats how we came back on them.SHAQ will foul out early Dwight has finally learned
to save his fouls. See you SATURDAY and bring the NEW GUY!!!
Denver wins, Lebron plays super, WHY THE WALKOFF POUT AGAIN????? Shake some hands and smile dont act like a spoiled BRAT What a role model…..NOT!!!