The Dream:
There are young players, there are productive players, and there are available players. At the trade deadline, a team generally gets to choose two out of three. Andre Iguodala, however, can check all three boxes. He’s 26 years old. He’s had three seasons with a PER of 18 or better in the last four years. And evidently, the 76ers are currently open to moving him.
Danny Ferry has done an absolutely masterful job of surrounding LeBron James with high-quality role players during his tenure as GM. That being said, thanks to LeBron getting too good too fast, Luke Jackson’s back, DaJuan Wagner’s intestines, Ricky Davis’ head, Larry Hughes’ everything, and the sins of Jim Paxson, LeBron’s never gotten a young potential superstar to grow with. (Mo Williams is great for what he is, but he’s no superstar.) This might be the Cavs’ chance to get LeBron a true running mate.
There’s also something else. Iguodala’s a lock-down perimeter defender, both on the ball and providing weak-side help. He’s got off-the-charts athleticism and a Gumby wingspan. He’s not a natural shooter, but he can make shots when they’re open. He’s a good decision-maker and can make plays. This is borderline heresy, but it’s hard not to see more than a little bit of Scottie Pippen in Iguodala. Here are the career numbers:
S. Pippen: 16.1 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.8 BPG
Iguodala: 15.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.5 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.5 BPG
Pippen wins across the board, but Iggy’s close in every category. Let’s go advanced:
S. Pippen: 53.6 TS%, 10.6 REB%, 23.1 AST%, 15.6 TO%, 22.5 USG
Iguodala : 55.9 TS%, 8.9 REB%, 19.3 AST%, 14.9 TO%, 19.7 USG
Still pretty darn close. (I will note that Pippen’s later years hurt his career TS%; with the Bulls, Pippen was always around the 55% mark.)
I’ve been opposed to comparing a LeBron sidekick to Scottie Pippen for a very long time. So when I say that Andre Iguodala could be the Cavs’ version of Scottie Pippen, realize that I do not make that comparison lightly. There are some issues with the analogy. I think Pippen was a much better decision-maker than Iguodala is, and a much more versatile offensive player in the half-court. The fit’s not perfect, either. As much as LeBron gets compared to Michael Jordan, his game honestly resembles a superpowered version of Scottie Pippen’s more than it resembles Jordan’s. (Pippen made a huge positive impact in every area of the game. LeBron is capable of dominating in every area of the game.)
The next Scottie Pippen, in search of a Jordan. Is that possibility enticing enough to make the risk worth it? Let’s break it down.
The Optimistic View:
First of all, Iguodala’s impact on the defensive end would be immediate. By the numbers, Iguodala may have been the best perimeter defender in basketball last season. What’s more, the numbers seem to make sense. Iguodala is a freak athlete with a 6-11 wingspan, and has been regarded as a nightmare defender ever since he came into the league. He’s also active on the weak side, as his block and steal numbers demonstrate.
The Cavs would become a scary defensive team if they added Iguodala. Anthony Parker is a very nice defender, but he’s no Iguodala on that end. With Iguodala, LeBron could roam free on the defensive end for the first 35 minutes of the game. Okay, he already does that. What the addition of Iguodala would mean is that the other team’s best scorer won’t get any easy baskets of his own while LeBron conserves energy and creates weak-side havoc for the majority of the game. Down the stretch, LeBron could take on the other team’s best scorer as Iguodala patrols the passing lanes and provides help. Iguodala and LeBron could be the best perimeter defensive tandem since Pippen and Jordan themselves. I don’t know about you, but I like the sound of that.
Add Delonte West coming off the bench, and you’re talking about 48 minutes of misery for opposing perimeter players. A few commenters have brought this up: who scores on a West/Iguodala/James/Varejao/Shaq lineup? It’s a good bet that Mike Brown’s had a few daydreams about a defense that includes Iguodala.
Offensively, Iguodala would be the best slasher LeBron James has ever played with. Iguodala loves to dunk the ball, and shot better than 70% at the rim in each of the last two seasons. This season, he’s gotten less easy opportunities at the rim, and has struggled to finish in traffic. Some of this may be due to the Sixers switching Andre Miller for Allen Iverson; only 50.4% of Iguodala’s shots at the rim have been assisted this season, compared to 57.1% last year. Playing with LeBron James, Iguodala could be an absolute force going at the rim on weak-side cuts and curls, and he also has the playmaking ability to find LeBron if the defense tries to collapse on his drives.
Iguodala is also very good in transition. The 76ers are an excellent fast-break team, and Iguodala is a big reason why. Iguodala runs the floor like a deer, and is more than capable of making the pass in the open court or finishing the break with emphasis. If the Cavs put Iguodala next to LeBron James, they could do some amazing things on the break.
Iguodala is also comfortable at the three, and has enough length to make more small-ball lineups very viable. At 26, Iguodala is already capable of giving the Cavs a new dimension on both sides of the floor.
The Skepticism:
Iguodala’s contract isn’t pretty. 12 million a year, and he’s under contract for five seasons. There’s no reset button on this trade if it happens.
There’s also the issue of scoring efficiency. Iguodala’s never had a mind-blowing TS%, and this year it’s at a career-low 52.3%. That’s well below league-average efficiency. Currently, Iguodala is a poor scorer from everywhere except the rim. He shoots 35.7% from inside of 10 feet, 25.5% from 10-15 feet, 37.0% from 15-23 feet, and 32% on threes. In fact, Iguodala is shooting a miserable 44.4% on layups this season. Basically, Iguodala is an inefficient offensive player when he takes any shot other than a dunk. That’s not good.
The good news is that Iguodala’s being forced to take too many tough shots in Philadelphia, which he hopefully wouldn’t have to take in Cleveland. He’s taking 56% of his jumpers off the dribble, which is an absurdly high percentage for a player who isn’t a natural shooter. He appears to have a solid stroke when he sets his feet, so he might have much more success from the outside with LeBron and co. setting him up with open looks.
If Iguodala starts, there might not be enough shooting for the Cavs. A lineup of Williams/Iguodala/James/Varejao/Shaq only features one true three-point threat, and four players who aren’t comfortable at all from midrange. The Cavs are only now figuring out how to keep their spacing intact when Shaq is on the floor. Would there be enough room in the paint if another slasher was added?
There’s also the issue of what the Cavs would have to give up. If it’s just Z with a buyout and JJ, that’s one thing. However, the word is that the 76ers are looking to use Iguodala to offload Dalembert’s contract. A commenter made that work with the Cavs giving up Z, Hickson, Boobie, and Parker. That’s a lot to give up. Say what you will about all of those guys, but you’re talking about shipping out four rotation players from the league’s best team, including two starters. And as much as Z has struggled with his shot, the team still plays very well with him on the floor, and he’s the only true 4 or 5 on the team able to stretch the floor.
Making Iguodala fit could require a lot more run-and-gun or a lot more small-ball. I’m not sure if that’s a philosophical shift that Mike Brown is willing to make, and I’m not even sure it’s one he should make.
Final Verdict:
Just like I was about the Amare trade, I’m extremely torn about this deal. On the one hand, only an idiot passes on an opportunity to add a great talent entering his prime, especially one who resembles Scottie Pippen. On the other hand, only an idiot makes a trade that could seriously alter the chemistry of a red-hot team with the league’s best record.
I don’t see the 76ers giving Iguodala up for Hickson and cap relief, especially when they have Speights and Thaddeus Young. I also don’t see the Cavs giving up four rotations and taking on Dalembert’s bad contract just to get Iguodala, especially without a buyout agreement for Z. This is one of those trades that usually only happens if both teams really want it to, and I don’t think either team wants the trade that badly right now. If the interest from the 76ers is real, I would not have to make the decision that Danny Ferry is faced with right now.
I’d only do this if it was Iggy for Z straight up. If you throw in JJ, that’s taking away two frontcourt guys for a backcourt guy with a really crippling contract. I think the Cavs need another frontcourt guy more than another guard. Once Mo and West are back, we should be pretty deep in the backcourt.
looking @ the rumors (murphy, jamison, iggy) from a risk/reward perspective i’d rank them like this:
1. iggy (high risk, high reward)
2. jamison (medium-high risk, medium-high reward)
3. murphy (low risk, low-medium reward)
I keep going back and forth about what the Cavs “need” and how much they need it. All of the “stretch 4″ options are weak defensively and all will require that minutes be taken away from AV, who is arguably our second best player. Besides, as frustratingly inconsistent as JJ is, he still has provided a solid 8-5 on 55% shooting as a starter this year. Food for thought: JJ’s 48-minute splits as a starter (18 points, 11 boards, 55% shooting) are comparable–certainly more efficient–than Jamison’s (26-11-46%).
Statistically, SG is our weakest position. Parker and Boobie are role players, Delonte is Delonte. Our “finishing five” of Shaq-AV-LBJ-AI-Mo would be absolutely nasty. A small ball lineup of AV-LBJ-AI-West-Mo would be deadly. But that contract … wow. I’m torn about what I want to see the Cavs do … especially now that Shaq seems to be coming into his own. Cavs have the best record, the best PF-PA difference in the league. Then again, none of that means a thing once the playoffs start. If LBJ was under contract a few more years, I think the Cavs would stand pat. But since he’s not … who knows?
Nice points, but pretty off the mark.
Iguodala’s contract goes up for the next 4-5 years, ending at $16M. Considering that NBA salaries are coming down and the owners are talking about a hard cap, it’s no wonder that 76′er are trying to dump a 26 year-old player for an expiring contract that by logic they would be building on. His contract is going to stifle any team that takes it on.
Add in that Iguodala’s game has suffer this year. OK, maybe it’s the losing. But I have my doubts this guy’s all that good.
And then add that the Cavs have 2 swingmen – Parker and Moon – that come close to what he can do. Then add they they’re developing Jawad and Danny Green (an Anthony Parker clone), and the idea of giving up a big in Z and taking on a guy that immediately stops development of Jawad and Green as well as cuts minutes for Parker and Moon while leaving the Cavs short a big man, makes no sense at all.
Iguodala is simply not coming here.
Besides, as frustratingly inconsistent as JJ is, he still has provided a solid 8-5 on 55% shooting as a starter this year.
_________________________
Charlie,
You are not going to keep a team in contention for years unless you can develop your own young players. This Cavs team is so good because the core of Z, Andy and Boobie have grown with LeBron. This article talks about Iguodala being a true 2 to LeBron. Got news for you – the true 2 is on the Cavs now, and it’s JJ. He has more talent then anyone on that team other then LeBron. So he can’t catch passes. Fine. Buy him a machine for him to use everyday this offseason that spits out passes every 20 seconds at incredible speeds. He’s only 21. He has plenty of time to grow. Look how LeBron has grown his game since he was 21.
If LeBron wants Jamison and they can get him for Z and JJ – I don’t like it, but OK. The Cavs have built an organization in the Spurs style. Fans in Cleveland have not seen a real sports organization since the mid-90 Indians taught hitting (and they were only good for hitting), and Paul Brown’s Browns. The fans here don’t understand what has been done, because the media hasn’t made it clear to you. The Cavs players are listening to the coaches and playing fundamental basketball. The good organizations do this in all sports. And when star players come over from losing organizations and have a chance to win a championship, those players adjust quickly. If Jamison comes here (and he has said he would like to play for the Cavs) he will play better defense then he ever has in his life. LeBron and Shaq will see to it that he let the coaches help him…..and the fans can call Mike Brown all the dumb names they want, but Mike teaches defense better then just about anyone in the NBA today…only Larry Brown comes to mind. Jamison will not be a Ben Wallace at SF, but he will play a solid NBA D.
Enjoy! The Cavs are just now taking off……
Don
I get what your saying, but the 76ers would be buying out Z so essentially he would get to take a month off and come right back (Fresher for the playoffs), and to do the trade we would have to give up gibson, J.J. and either parker or moon so Danny green in my opinion would end up being the fourth backcourt player on the team instead of where he is now being 5th or sixth so he would get more consistant minutes, the biggest drawback in my opinion is the loss of all the shooting on the perimeter, the more i think about it i would switch Moon and Parker in the trade, I like moon better as a player but he is more similar to Iggy so keeping parker’s shooting would be important even tho i feel like hes over the hill and doesnt hit shots in the clutch, and the fact that his numbers are down this year actually does make sense, because his team has no true point guard and he is one of the only options on that offense in phili, and i would miss Gibson in the clutch, if they could make the sixers swallow this trade without gibson that would be the ideal for me, i dont think this trade will happen cuse ferry is scared to break up our “chemistry” not becasue Iguodala is paid to much or is not a great player
A few things.
1.) Great breakdown of Iggy, JK. Sometimes I feel like you just do grunt work for us, but we appreciate it.
2.) I like the idea of adding Igudala more for the future than this year. This year this team is very reliant on our bigs. I would rank our players in terms of importance as: Bron, Andy, Shaq, Mo, Delonte, Z in that order. I highly doubt Shaq comes back next year unless he’s willing to resign at a huge paycut. Also, who knows if Z retires. Suddenly, 2 of our top 6 players are gone and we have obviously have to go to a more small ball style with LeBron at the 4. This is where having a guy like AI2 in his prime would be a good thing.
3.) I think sometimes we over-analyze players, or see what we want to see. Case in point, lots of people talk about JJ Hicksons ridiculous talent. Well, he still has zero post moves, never has plays called for him, and really just feasts on all the attention LeBron gets. I will admit he has improved, especially on the defensive end, and I wouldn’t want to lose him, but I think our expectations may be a bit high. Everyone was excited about Jason Maxielle when he came into the league, and many people thought Hickson could be a better version of that, but is that really anything to write home about? Also, I think that while players improve, add elements to their game, and really LEARN how to play defense, few players go through complete transformations. For example, Boobie Gibson was a clutch shooter and terrible point guard as a rookie. Guess what, he’s more clutch now, and hardly any better at running the point. His defense and rebounding has improved, but he’s never going to be Chauncey Billups like John Hollinger’s player rater thought he could be. Drew Gooden is never going to be the starting power forward on a championship team. He will never overcome his mental lapses, bad hands, and failure to finish around the rim, but he will also be a decent if streaky outside shooter and excellent rebounder. I remember how high my hopes were for Sasha. If he could just “get it” he had the skill set and talent to be so special. But he’s always been sort of a headcase, and he’s never going to change his stripes. For Hickson, I see his defense and rebounding improving. I just don’t see him ever becoming someone you can run complicated plays for in the offense. He is never going to have Andy Varejao’s feel for the game, just like Andy is never going to be a great outside shooter and Rondo is never going to be a great jump-shooter. I worry that we might be too protective of Hickson. Obviously no one wants to see him go, but if you can get a proven guy that fits like AI2 – I think you have to do it.
4.) Unlike many people, I am very high on Igudala. I’ve seen people compare him to Larry Hughes because of his shaky TS%. But COME ON! The guy is a freak athlete, is NEVER injured, is an unselfish player, and would absolutely dominate on a team with guys that are drawing attention away from him. Think about it. He’s not efficient at creating his own shot off the dribble from mid-range and beyond. OK. Who on the Cavs do we EVER have do that other than LeBron and sometimes Mo? We don’t ask Anthony Parker to create off the dribble, nor J-Moon, nor D-West, nor Boobie. I mean, these guys all have their bread and butter spots on the floor and Delonte likes to mix in some iso-post ups. They can all thrive because they are solid role players and LeBron gets the most out of them. AI is not a ROLE player right now, but put him on the Cavs, suddenly his offensive usage goes down, he’s not getting nearly the attention on defense he’s getting now, and he has the best passer in the NBA finding him on backdoor cuts and alley-oops. The fact that he is athletic enough to create his own shot (he hit a few game winners last year against good defenses) is just gravy! I mean I can’t SEE a better FIT. When we signed Mo Williams many people sort of stated the obvious: Well, he isn’t much of a true PG and he doesn’t play any defense. Guess what, we didn’t NEED a true-PG on the Cavs with LeBron and everyone that plays for Mike Brown plays defense! We knew Mo was a shot-maker, that’s what we needed, sometimes it’s that simple. Right now, we could use more talent, more athleticism, more youth, and another guy that can make defenses pay for doubling/trapping. I just really feel like by himself, AI2 is not a top-tier player, but the reason for that is efficiency and I think his efficiency would skyrocket on this Cavs team.
5.) i really see no reason to sign Troy Murphy unless it’s simply a trade for Z and we get him back. I would not give up Hickson for Murphy. You need solid role players, but too many one-dimensional players is not good especially against really good defenses. You need triple threat players. (AI is a triple threat!)
6.) I wouldn’t want to be Ferry either. No matter what he does he will be criticized until he is either vindicated or criticized more. I can’t believe people aren’t bowing down to him right now. Everyone said getting Shaq was a mistake, said that Rasheed Wallace and Ron Artest were THE GUYS that were going to make an impact and yet we are 5-0 against LA, Orlando, and Atlanta and Boston is looking weaker by the day. He is not getting NEARLY enough credit for how he has transformed a perennial 4-seed with a punchers chance to a perenial championship contender in 1 year. Our depth is STAGGERING right now. If he doesn’t make a move, there will be cries and wailing and gnashing of teeth. If he unloads Z everyone will say we “betrayed Z”, if we traded Hickson, many people will say we gave away our best young player.
All I can say is, he was unfairly criticized (as Windy pointed out) for not getting Shaq last year at the deadline. One person can’t make a trade all by himself. We didn’t “stand pat” – teams just wouldn’t deal.
I have faith that he will make the right decision, but I really hope that if AI2 is there for the taking, we take him. Honestly, if it means we have to absorb another bad contract, who really cares? As long as Gilbert is our owner we are NEVER going to be a team way under the Cap that can play around in FA. What’s the point? FAs don’t sign here anyway. I’d rather use our assets to add talent. Plus, having a guy like Dalembert as a backup wouldn’t be so bad since Z and Shaq are on their last legs.
Thank you Tsunami for writing all of that out I completely agree with everything i just didnt feel like writing all that out… J.J. is overrated and iguodala is underrated, and although i dont believe in Ferry as much as you do cuse of the szczerbiak screw up I think he has done a really good job
Well said by both JK and Tsunami. I definitely like the idea of adding Iggy to this mix, but it has to be for the right price. In Ferry We Trust.
As a casual Cavs fan, I do not want Z’s 12-year fall-and-rise story to end with him being traded away the same year we seem to be hitting a rhythm on track to bring a championship to the city.
Sometimes, it matters who lifts the trophy. For me it’s not Lebron and a bunch of others, it’s LeBron, Z and a bunch of others.
Tsunami,
All good points. Some comments back….
“I think sometimes we over-analyze players, or see what we want to see. Case in point, lots of people talk about JJ Hicksons ridiculous talent. Well, he still has zero post moves, never has plays called for him, and really just feasts on all the attention LeBron gets.”
o The Cavs are going for a championship. Young players are not going to try out their moves until they’re totally debugged. JJ had move moves last year then this. I’m assuming he’s working on things in practice, but is being told not to use them yet. I read last baseball season that Andy Pettite – a veteran MLB pitcher – worked 2 years on a new pitch before slowly beginning to use it in games. I remember JJ making 15-17 foot jumpers last year, he’s not using them at all this year. I figure the coaches have instructed him to shinny his game down – get the dunks and putbacks, play D and get the rebounds. heck, LeBron worked on a baby hook last offseason, and the other night I saw him use it (twice) for the first time in months during a game. No doubt the Cavs are holding some things back for the playoffs.
I did find it interesting that Shaq told JJ he could be another Cedric Ceballos – a guy that didn’t have plays called for him and still spent years averaging 20 points a game.
I think JJ on the Cavs 10 years ago wouldn’t develop into anything. But this coaching staff, and LeBron and his other teammates demanding high standards while offering support on and off the court, can get him coached up. For 2 years Ferry has received more calls asking about JJ in trade then anyone else on the roster.
Troy Murphy is a stiff at this point. his main value is an expiring contract next year. The Pacers asked way, way too much for him. Let him got to the Celtics. The Cavs shut him down the other night in Indianapolis, they can shut him down in Boston.
What the Cavs have done with Shaq – and he’s gone along with it – is unbelievable to me. They/he has convinced everyone that he’s only a “role player” now, and that he’s fading off into the sunset. Wrong! Shaq is rested and will be on that floor for 35 minutes a game come the playoffs. He’s one of the smartest players in the NBA. Even at 80% of what he once was, he’s stronger then anyone in the league other then Dwight Howard….and I doubt he’s weaker. Shaq will still be a presence on D as long as he’s out there. And he will calm down and help focus the Cavs players with his playoff and championship experience. He’s also still one of the best post passers in the NBA.
Regarding Igudala – I don’t think he’s as good as you make him out to be. And from a value standpoint, as Brian said yesterday in his chat, “he’s not earning his salary now, and his salary is due to climb.” Yes, I believe he would do better here then in Philly. But so would almost any player the Cavs acquire. This is not Scottie Pippin. Not close. A nice player to have. But not worth a big. If they could get him for say Parker, Jawad or Green, Wally’s expiring contract and maybe a draft choice….OK (and the Sixers couldn’t sell that to their fans). But the 76′ers want Z’s expiring contract, and there is no guarantee that Z would return. A big reason the Cav beat the Lakers twice is because Z went in an guarded Pau Gasol. The Lakers run their triangle offense through Gasol. When he can’t pass, they break down. Z stopped him from getting the ball, and he disrupted his passing. Maybe that doesn’t show in the stats, but what was happening on the court was clear. Even an SI writer noted it, and mentioned that the Cavs were leery about not having Z to play Gasol if they and the Lakers made the Finals. You bring me a Jamison and I can live with the fact that he’s not Z on D because I know he can score 20-30 a game against the Lakers. But Igudala? Taking a crapshoot there.
I’m not worried about next year. If the Cavs win the championship I can see everyone from this team coming back, and most of the players are young and getting better.
Jamison for Z and JJ….OK. Anything else – not worth the risk.
Last thing – buyouts will be coming in a few weeks. Those are vets with large contracts on losing teams. The vets want to go to contenders. Tracy McGrady will be one of those buyouts. I’d love to see the Cavs pick him up to be scorer off the bench for 12-15 minutes a game. And there will be other guys available.
Don – I don’t think McGrady has anything left in the tank. And I’m not sure he could do what Shaq has done and put ego aside.
When I look at Igudala I just see a guy that isn’t a franchise player but could REALLY be a missing piece guy. Remember, he’s unselfish, an elite defender, a fast-break nightmare, and despite his documented “shooting woes” he’s no more inefficient than a guy like Stephen Jackson. Look at the difference he has made in Charlotte and they are ASKING him to take lots of shots there.
I see Igudala’s skill set and think, man, if this guy could play a style where he didn’t have to create so much for himself he’d be insane. Think, Shawn Marion’s role on Phoenix. So much attention on Nash and Stoudemire, the Matrix gets all the loose balls, runs the break, can hit the 3, is a monster defensively. He moves to Miami and it has never been the same. Andre Igudala is Shawn Marion at shooting guard, only unlike Marion was really needed to be set up, Igudala CAN score on his own if he needs to. Seriously did nobody watch his game winners last year against LA and Orlando?
I too would not feel the same if Z was not here. However, I just see no reason why he wouldn’t be bought out. Antonio McDyess was still a formidable player last year and Denver could have definitely used him. But he wanted to go back to Detroit so they worked a buyout. I mean, the teams we are talking about, Philly, Indy, Washington – Z would never put on a uniform for them. There is no reason. I don’t see how he wouldn’t get a buyout.
I really don’t think Iguodala is that risky of a move. He plays like a bigger, better version of Delonte West, pretty much (with less shooting, more slashing).
Giving up, say Z, Hickson, Boobie, and Parker, I’d def take it. Z prolly comes back,
Hickson is the only player I would miss, but I doubt he will ever have as much effect on a game as Iguodala does now.
Parker is the one being replaced, and Gibson would probably go back to not having much playing time anyway if he was in a backcourt with Mo Williams, Iguodala, and Delonte as the backup at either spot. And this way, Danny Green gets to play more.
Disagree that JJ has no post moves. He has a lot of one-on-one post moves. He’s got a nice turnaround (his hang time is very good), a decent up and under, and a mediocre hook shot. He’s even showed signs of being a decent passer (though he doesn’t always spot the double). He has a decent face and drive to the right as well. What he lacks is a 15 footer. I don’t think I’ve seen him hit that shot all year. The problem with JJ in the post is that they pass to him there so infrequently, he feels required to make a spectacular play every time he gets the ball there. He hates passing it back out to the wing because he knows he won’t get it back. So he either makes a good play or tries to jump over two guys for a put-back, or makes a difficult inside pass to Shaq.
JJ has the ability to be an all-star. He’s only 21, his athleticism is off the charts, he’s got super long arms, huge hands, runs hard, and he’s in a perfect situation. If he works, he can be Al Jefferson with some defensive ability. Couple that with the fact that he’s a throwback player (a post power forward), he can have a really effective NBA game.
I can live with who the Cavs have at PF now. I would love Jamison, and I’d give up JJ to get him, but not Murphy. Jamison’s defense is fine. He’s on a terrible team, with a terrible defensive philosophy, so it looks worse than it is. Jamison is an absolute beast when motivated, and can beat you in so many ways. Murphy is also a decent player, and an absolute knock down shooter, and a very good re-bounder — one of the best in the league, and he boxes out really well. Imagine Shaq, Murphy, ‘Bron, Moon, and whoever dominating the boards. Still Jamison is an elite player, and Murphy is a good player. (Remember, you can play Jamison at the 3 and move LeBron to the 2 or 1 for a monstrous lineup). If this injury stretch is proving anything, it’s that playing Lebron at the 1 is devastating to other teams.
Iguodala? I think he’d be a great addition too. He’s got Jamario Moon’s athleticism, but with a a better handle and feel for the game. Still, he could be like Larry Hughes (minus the injuries) all over again if he pulls up too much. The defense, all around game, and ability to finish and run the break make him a great LBJ partner. Any of those three would be a fine addition, as well as Kevin Martin. Caron Butler would be terrible. His game has devolved a LOT. The Cavs will give up Z, Delonte, JJ, and sign-trade Wally. I do not believe they’ll touch Moon or Parker unless they’re getting a 2-Guard back in return (they don’t want to lose the size to guard Orlando’s wings again). Boobie, as he’s LeBron’s best friend on the team, is untouchable (he’s also proving that the difference between Boobie and Mo is somewhat negligible).
Also, don’t forget late season buy-outs: McGrady (might) be one, Raja Bell, if he’s not traded, Tony Battie, anyone in their last year on the Wizards, and Etan Thomas: not exactly a murder’s row. Battie could end up on the Celtics, Bell will be a hot commodity (Lakers would love him), and T-Mac will get a lot of workouts and sign with the best contender (Also a Laker’s possibility).
And would you rather have Iggy guarding Kobe in the Finals, or Delonte? Iggy is the same height as Kobe, and, like everyone has said, a really really good perimeter defender. Delonte is good too, but not big enough. And, we’re getting Leon Powe back some time soon, so in a trade for Iguodala we would be losing 1 big man (Hickson), and gaining Dalembert.. I don’t think it would take nearly as much time for Iguodala to adjust as Shaq. 2 completely different players. I think getting Iguodala is the best way to persuade Lebron to stay.
Great post Tsunami. I want to add this about J.J. and IgUOdala.
J.J. sucks. I love all Cavs players, even Danny Green and Jawad more than rationale would suggest. But I hate J.J. because he sucks and I would hate for his ‘potential’ to block a trade to bring us Iguodala. Let’s take a look at J.J.
His rebounding% this year is 13.7% which is below average for a PF. This ‘young and improving player’ had a 13.9% mark last year. So his rebounding his below average and not improving. His TS% is good at 57% but he’s pretty low usage so it’s not as useful as it looks. His hands are awful. He can’t catch a pass and it leads to nonsense turnovers and I’m not sure you can just make your hands good all of the sudden. Terrell Owens and Braylon Edwards drop a lot of passes every year and that’s their whole job. His defense is very bad although it seems to be improving, he’s not exactly locking down. And he’s a black hole, with almost nonexistent passing ability. Subjectively, I think every move he makes looks clumsy and forced, even if he hits the shot, which isn’t a good sign from someone with so much athleticism. And believe me, an in-house player Spurs-style star would be awesome, I’m cheering for it. It’s just not going to happen.
And about Iguodala’s efficiency, yes it is down this year but it’s possibly an outlier of being in this mess of a team. Look at his TS% from other years. 58% his rookie year, 60% (!) in year 2, two other seasons at 56%, one at 54% and this year is 52%. I wasn’t on here for the Stephen Jackson talk but if people wanted Jackson, his percentages weren’t nearly as good as that. 55% TS is solid, 58% is good, and 60% is great. So where is this guys’ inefficiency if he’s broken at least 56% 4 times. Also, he’s the primary creator on a team that overextends him at a superstar level. I imagine that his efficiency would improve somewhat, back to the 56-57% range and that would be among the highest on our team. And note that his passing is some of the best at SG. When he plays like he did last year, he’s definitely worth his contract. You can’t get a top 25 player for 6 million a year, there is a price involved.
I think adding Iguofala to the mix would be huge…straight up huge…
A few years ago, we got Mo Williams because his team didn’t want to deal with his salary. And since coming to Cleveland he’s flourished playing off Lebron. Guys who are super talented like Lebron run their team and make their other players better. First off, LBJ can make a lot of role players better. Guys like D West, Parker, Jamario, and Jawad all benefit playing with him. But when you get another player in his prime…IE Mo Williams…the step up in their game is phenomenal. I see the same thing potentially happening here with Iguodala.
He plays killer defense. If we don’t trade now, we will only have a few million to spend in the offseason with our expirings off the books. We’d still have some guys on our bench to fill in the holes, but we’d be adding another player locked-up in his prime who can just come right in and play ball with Lebron.
With a guy like LBJ, you can adapt to anything with his versatility. It might take some time, but our talent would be much bigger with Andre on the team next to Mo and LBJ.
Taking Dalembert’s contract with Iggy’s is tough. But I think it’s the only way the Sixers do the deal. They’re dangling Iggy to make you take Dalembert. Dalembert is serviceable, and would play better surrounded by winners. But he makes 12 Mil. per. He’d also be Shaq insurance, but I’m not sure we can re-sign Shaq next year if he’s here. Plus we now have 3 questionable shooters in our 4-5 rotation. Dalembert is not a horrible shooter, but is real streaky, and only has range to 12 feet or so. However he oddly shoots 84% from the line. He’s a very good shot-blocker and rebounder though, and the kind of guy Mike Brown seems to know how to make productive. Honestly, I think he’d be a much better version of JJ (which he ought to be at 12 Mil. per). Dalembert is having a monster January though. Still he and Iggy make a combined $50 million this year and next. That’s a tough pill for any owner to swallow.
Here’s the hoopshype bio on him that sums it up: “Maddeningly inconsistent.”
“I see Igudala’s skill set and think, man, if this guy could play a style where he didn’t have to create so much for himself he’d be insane.”
Good afternoon Tsunami,
And this is why I have a problem letting Z go for this guy. The Cavs problem in the playoffs last year is that they don’t have enough guys that can create their own shots. Mo and Lebron were it, and face it – Mo choked the entire playoffs….big time. A guy that creates his own shots – like a Jamison – is what this team needs. You go into the final 3 minutes of a playoff game and you’d better have at least 3 guys on the court that can create their own shot.
As Brian pointed out yesterday – players often disappear in the playoffs. I KNOW Z can play in them – forget the shooting and blocking – he’s smart, alters other players shots, plays pick-n-roll with both Z and Andy, and is a fine passer. He has played with these guys for years. That team would have 4 months to learn to play with Iguodala, and Iguodala with them. And we don’t know how Iguodala plays in the playoffs.
Bottom line – this is nice to chat about. But the fact is that the Sixers called the Cavs on Iguodala, and all the Cavs did was listen. They’re not enamored with him at all. I don’t think they would trade JJ straight up for him….JJ makes 1/10th his salary, and a hard salary cap is in the offing.
And I should add that the Cavs have one player coming in that I KNOW plays big in the playoffs – because I saw him do it numerous times – Leon Powe. Powe is a 6’8″ PF – and I have seen him guard 3′s as well. And given the chance to play more, I don’t doubt he could move to the 3 and score. He’s been buds with LeBron since high school. I’d like to see him play some 3 with LeBron as a 1. He won’t do all that this year – give him till the middle of next season to get back to 90-95%. But he will help this year for 5-10 minutes a game.
The Cavs are deep. While I expect some of the players to fall out, I expect a surprise or two. Parker is pumped to be in the playoffs after being out of the country and on so many bad NBA teams. Moon is playing at a much higher level then in Miami. Danny has been a winner and big game player all his life. As I said – Powe play big in big games. And Boobie shoots extremely well under pressure. I’m not really counting on much from JJ or Jawad, but who knows. Bad as it sounds – I’m not counting on Mo or Delonte as well. LeBron can play the point on O, and heck, he’s a better passer then they are. We know LeBron, Andy, Shaq and Z are going to show up and play big minutes. They only need 3 of the other guys to play decent in limited minutes, and they can play with anyone. And if they get Jamison…….
Look at last year’s playoff numbers for all you need to see about Iguodala.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2386&year=2009
21 PPG, 6.3 Assists, 6.7 Rebounds. .393% from 3, .449% from the field (.65 FT% numbers though).
Remember he was playing of ‘dre miller, so he wasn’t dominating the ball either. The guy can get it done.
Great analysis here John. Stealing Andre from the Sixers could turn out to be as big for LeBron as the Pau Gasol trade was for Kobe. Literally within five seconds after that grand theft, Kobe’s fortunes were reversed and he became not only the greatest Laker of all time, but possibly the second-best shooting guard of all-time. The upside truly is unlimited with Iguodala, who nearly set the world on fire with that first round against Orlando last season. Huge upside as you mentioned, but definitely a big gamble for Ferry and company.
I don’t think some understand how good Igoudala is. His numbers on offense are down this year but if you look at the previous three years you see one of the better slashers in the league. He is as good a play-making and defending wing as just about anybody not named Lebron or Kobe. He averages close to six assist a game on a pretty offensively challenged team. His defense is extremely under-rated. If the Cavs can get him without having to take back Samuel Dalembert they should do it without thinking twice. Him and Lebron you could win 60+ games with scrubs around them let alone the fine cast of role-players Cleveland has put together. I do not understand that concerns about his contract as long as Lebron stays in Cleveland. Again those two together you can win titles with moderately/cheap priced role-players.
I watch a lot of Sixers games, so I’ve actually seen quite a bit of Iguodala both this season and last. In my opinion, the Cavs would be gaining in every area except 3-point shooting. AP’s main offensive value is his ability to knock down the open 3, so this really could be an issue in the offense. However, I do think Iguodala has suffered from having to take too many jumpers off the dribble, and is a capable-enough 3-pointer shooter to keep opposing defenses honest. When you look at what he brings to to table in his ability to get into the paint and his passing, I’d have to say he’s an upgrade. The main issue would be the spacing/chemistry within the offense, but I think that’s something the Cavs could overcome relatively easily. Iguodala is an unselfish player.
That being said, my biggest concern would be trading both Z and JJ for him. The Cavs would pretty much be left with Shaq and Andy in the frontcourt for a month while Z returns and Powe works his way back. Of course they could play Lebron and Moon at the 4 more, but it’s not ideal. When you look at Iguodala’s contract, I’d be willing to do it. He’s hardly ever injured and is entering/just entered his prime. He looks to be a productive player for a while, and I don’t really expect the Cavs to have serious cap space anytime soon. If Lebron resigns, there’s going to be pressure to keep him surrounded with effective players, especially in the frontcourt after Z and Shaq retire. And if Lebron doesn’t resign, we’re screwed anyway.
Pau Gasol took the Lakers to another level he was the perfect fit as a big man in the traingle offense.
If Igoudala was this perfect for the Cavs, I’d guess Ferry and Brown would have him here today.
Trading a big for a small in the NBA seldom happens. And it seldom happens because it seldom works out well for the team trading the big.
i’m somewhat surprised that none of you have mentioned this stat (esp. you, john, as you’re a big stat guy) that the cavs are 20-0 when JJ scores 7 or more points. TWENTY AND OH!!!!!
that’s a big enough sample size, so don’t gimme any crap about that. JJ is more important to this team than any of maybe realized. how hard is for JJ to get 3 lay-ups/dunks and hit a FT every game playing with LBJ and shaq? not too hard, i think we’d all agree. and when that does indeed happen the cavs DO NOT LOSE. not even once!!!
food for thought, my brothers…